As a former dealer I can say yes, the dealership gets a significant portion of it’s income from
Lending institutions with whom it places loans. Cash buyers are as welcome as cockroaches in the showroom.
And I don’t see anything wrong with that. It’s simply a beneficial business relations.
That sort of proves my point, that most dealers don’t care if a customer wants to pay cash and there is no incentive for a dealer to lower the price of a car when a customer pays cash.
Dealers do care if a buyer pays in cash but not for reasons of a discount. The financing profit is considered during negotiating the price of the vehicle and when the buyer pulls out a check book to pay for the vehicle the finance person handling the deal is going to offer some resistance to the buyer for paying in cash.
1 Like
Sorry. The comment was meant for Liz10 and her questions about buying a used BMW.
Frank Martinoli
March 24
FRANKM:
Please don’t!
OK I won’t. Even though I have no clue as to what your are referring to.
When I purchased my last new vehicle (Dodge Caravan), 23 years ago, I wanted to charge the entire amount to a credit card, but the dealer wouldn’t do it because of the service fee they’d pay, but they had no problem accepting a personal check for the full purchase price.
The fact that the van was a left-over, in-stock vehicle, from the previous model-year and I was negotiating a deal on the last two days of the calendar year, threw the seller/buyer relationship ball into my court. I was literally and figuratively in the driver’s seat.
I wanted a vehicle they didn’t want and I was willing to walk if push came to shove.
That old vehicle now lives in Florida and we use it as one of our daily drivers here. It has been an unbelievably fantastic vehicle and continues to be one! However, so have all the used “big 3” cars I’ve purchased.
That is why it was the last new car I bought. Used cars, carefully researched, selected, and negotiated do what new cars do, at a mere fraction of the price.
CSA
Good for you CSA…Too bad the rest of us who grew up with Big 3 (or Big 4 if you include AMC) were not so lucky. 100k miles without a problem on any Big-3 vehicle I’ve owned or any relative or friend of mine - was considered it extremely reliable. The new standard for us with vehicles from Honda/Lexus and Toyota is now 200k miles. I have several relatives who are retired Chryco and GM manufacturing employees…and they don’t own a Big-3 vehicle.
I grew up in a “big 3” home, but I think many of those folks who downplay the reliability and quality of cars, like all the ones I’ve owned and operated, are living in the past, bringing up stories from cars on the road decades ago.
I don’t believe the fact is that I can drive these cars “forever” with hardly anything to do but put in gas and provide minimal regular maintenance is a fluke. I’ve had too many of these cars, without a bad one in the bunch. I currently have and use cars as daily drivers that are 23, 19, 16, 14, 11, model-years old, most purchased used, and none with any major repair work (nothing on engines or transmissions). None of these cars, to this day, has ever failed to start, run, or drive, and none have stranded anybody. The dang things just keep on keeping on. If I wasn’t saving so much money with them, I’d be embarrassed, ha, ha.
I have to tell you, I get quite a chuckle when people cite Consumer Reports to prove reliability ratings and when I read all of the catastrophes reported on this forum from owners of Toyota, Honda/Lexus, Asian cars. The myth that goes with these cars and then the actual reports from owners is amusing, but I don’t tire of it and it helps make the cars I purchase a better deal.
I know quite a bit about cars, researching, buying, diagnosing, maintaining, wrenching, driving, etcetera. Do you really think I’d keep choosing these wonderful vehicles if they were not extremely reliable, very comfortable, robust, and inexpensive to own and operate?
Anyhow, bottom line, anybody choosing any vehicle to buy and drive is of no concern to me. The vehicles I choose and am concerned with are the vehicles my wife and operate.
I don’t really care what make vehicle I drive. I had a 1954 Buick that I bought from my father. I gave the car to my brother. It had 160,000 miles when he sold it in 1965. It didn’t use oil and the heads and pan had never been off the engine. I owned a 1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass that I owned for 33 years. It had 240,000 miles when I sold it and never had any work done on the engine. It did look a little ratty when I sold it. The engine never used oil and ran well when I sold it. People accused me of being like Lt. Columbo and his old Peugeot because I also had an old trench coat that I wore. Unfortunately, we had a break-in at our house and the trench coat was stolen. Nothing else was taken. Mrs. Triedaq was home at the time and claims not to have heard the thief. I saw an identical coat at Goodwill when I went shopping for a replacement. Mrs. Triedaq had the checkbook and wouldn’t buy it for me.
I had a 2006 Chevrolet Uplander that I sold to our son. It now has 250,000, runs well, and has never had any engine or transmission work. It has only had routine maintenance. It still has the original alternator, fuel pump, water pump, etc. On the other hand, its replacement was a 2011 Sienna that I bought new. At 90,000 miles, it had to have the water pump replaced which cost $975. I could go 55,000 miles on a set of tires on the Uplander. I could only get 40,000 miles on a set of tires on the Sienna. I now have a 2017 Sienna because I got a good deal from the Toyota dealer.
My experience is that Toyota products are not better nor no worse than other products in my experience. The Toyota vehicles I have owned–two Siennas and a 4Runner do the job. They aren’t particularly fun to drive. When I think of a car that’s fun to drive, I think back to the MG Midget. Perhaps today, the Mazda Miata Miata would be fun for me to own.
I know very little about the BMW, although it may be more fun to drive than a Toyota. Maybe this is the car for the OP. I had colleagues that owned BMWs and the image factor was important to them. I was o.k. with my battered Oldsmobile Cutlass and my trenchcoat. I wish, at Mrs. Triedaq’s insistence, that I hadn’t sold the Oldsmobile and I wish I could catch the thief that stole my trenchcoat.
1 Like
And I quite a chuckle from people who THINK their Big-3 vehicles are reliable, but when compared to Most Asian vehicles…not even close. While consumer reports are not thee end all - they do offer better statistics then any anecdotal evidence. But it’s NOT just Consumer reports…USA Today, Forbes, MSCars…All rate Asian vehicles more reliable.
This is where math and science fail you. Survey after survey has shown the superior reliability of Asian vehicles over the Big-3 for several decades now. It’s evidence based science. You may have a different OPINION…but that doesn’t mean it’s true or valid. I can show you several dozen people who’ve smoked for decades and never got lung cancer. If you concluded from those people that smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer then you’re ignoring the hundreds of thousands of people who die every year from lung cancer due (mostly due to smoking).
Your thinking and ignoring proven science and math is EXACTLY like a Flat Earther. The similarities are too big to be ignored.
2 Likes
You are missing a big point. For example, I have owned a number of “American” vehicles that suffered no mechanical breakdowns. Am I not able to correctly state that those vehicles were reliable?
Of course you can state that those few vehicles were reliable…but you can’t CONCLUDE that American vehicles are AS reliable as Asian vehicles.
Now if you’re like my brother-in-law who was a Ford man for several decades…and swore up and down on how reliable his Fords were. Now 10 years later his eyes were open to fact that the Fords were NOT that reliable…at least not compared to the Honda’s and Toyota’s he and his wife and kids now own. What he misses about his Fords…is spending some me time once every other month taking one of his Fords to the dealer for an issue. He’s leave the house at 8am…get to the dealer and drop off the vehicle and wait. Get a cup of free coffee in the lounge and read the paper. Then when all done he’d leave and get lunch and be home by 2. But that “ME” time usually cost him several hundred dollars. Tells me he doesn’t even know where the Honda or Toyota service center is. But he does miss his “ME” time.
We’ve had both Detroit-3 and Asian vehicles in our fleet. The last problematic vehicle we bought was in 1995, and a Detroit-3 minivan. Since then, we had three three reliable Detroit-3 vehicles and 3 Asian vehicles. Two of the Asian cars are too new to pronounce reliable, though the 2017 hasn’t had any problems yet. I’d be willing to buy from either group, but got more for my money in the Asian cars. Reliability was not an issue in any of my purchases this century.
I understand statistics, and you are correct. But most people speak of their own vehicles only. The error, of course, is if they then generalize based on that insignificant sample size.
1 Like
Small samples are not very valid. But I do understand why people do put more emphasis on their own personal data.
A Forbes survey last year showed the more reliable manufacturers…The top 17 were NOT the Big-3. Ford came in at #18.
Note that Audi and BMW are in the top ten.
I subscribe to Consumer Reports and now have the 2020 annual automobile issue. I faithfully fill out the questionnaires when they are sent out. I notice from this issue, that the Honda seems to have slipped, particularly the Honda Odyssey, the minivan. In fact, it seems to have a worse repair record than the Dodge Caravan.
Consumer Reports base its repair records based on responses to the questionnaires sent to its subscribers. I am not sure that these responders are truly representative of the general population. I think CR subscribers are more apt to buy high end goods. I only subscribe to see what the upper crust are purchasing. I may have to replace our 28 year old washing machine. I don’t think I am going to buy a $1000 super dooper front loader. I’ll buy a top loader that costs less than half as much. I may have to buy a new lawnmower to replace the 28 year old mower I now have. I am not inclined to pay $600 for the top rated Honda. I will probably buy a $150 push mower. If I take care of it, it will probably last at least half as long as the recommended Honda.
There are other factors CR doesn’t take into account. I once owned a 1971 Ford Maverick. According to CR, it had a poor repair record. However, the 1971 Mercury Comet, which was the same car with just a different label, had an above average repair record. I wrote to CR as to the discrepancy. The answer I received was “That is the way the data came out”. The question is “Why did the data come out this way?”
I think I found the answer. Popular Mechanics used to do a survey of owners of new cars as well as a road test. One survey involved owners of Ford/Mercury twin models. The owners of the Mercury model was about eight years older than the Ford model. I would guess that the Mercury owners probably drove more conservatively than the Ford owners and may have been more conscientious on maintenance.
The information from the data collected by Consumer Reports has benefit as a starting place. However, the source of the data has to be considered. Back in 1936, a poll indicated that Alf Landon would defeat Roosevelt in the Presidential election. I don’t remember a President Landon from my history books. The fault of this poll was that it was a telephone survey. In 1936, many voters did not have a telephone. Also, many rural areas did not have phone service. The more affluent had the telephones and this group tended to vote Republican.
Honda and Acura have taken a big hit on reliability over the last few years. Very disappointing. I’ll be looking at Toyota and Mazda.
And that’s why you only use CR as ONE resource. But there are many other sources that mimic CR’s conclusions. They all rate Asian vehicles more reliable then the Big-3. It’s not even close. Sure you’ll have some models of the Big-3 more reliable then some models of the Toyota or Honda. But those are isolated cases.
@MikeInNH. I do look at other sources. One source is the mechanics in the motor pool at the University where I was a faculty member. The University bought different makes of vehicles. These vehicles were driven by many different drivers. These mechanics were a good source of which were the more troublesome vehicles.
I think back to 1978 when I bought an Oldsmobile Cutlass. A couple colleagues thought I should have purchased a Honda Accord instead. The problem back then was that the Accord had a terrible rust problem with the front fenders. Honda did supply new front fenders, but I think the owner was responsible for having them painted. Also, I never had to replace a timing belt on my Oldsmobile.
I’m sure you took at least one class in Statistics. Then you must know that your sample size is way too small to be considered statistically valid.
Most vehicles had major rust problems before the mid 80s, but the Asian vehicles were particularly prone to premature rust back then. My 1986 most of those rust problems went eliminated. Chryco had MAJOR rust problems with almost every car they sold in the 60’s and 70’s. You could tell how old the car was by how much rust the top of the front fenders had. At the time I had several relatives working for Chryco at New Process Gear. You couldn’t drive through the parking lot and find a Dodge/Plymouth or Chryco that was over 2 years old and didn’t have rusting fenders (unless they had Ziebart treatment).
Just everything else.