Ah, but I never had the referenced sludging problem. Or, for that matter, any other serious problems with any of my Toyotas. As I mentioned, I DID have serious safety problems with my GM. Therein lies the difference and the truth behind my buying decisions.
I tried GM first. Had the car not been such poor quality I would have stayed with GM. I actually liked the car itself, it was just had all manner of problems. Had my first Toyota been poor quality I would have tried some other brand.
If in coming years Toyota starts to slip and GM becomes more reliable, I’ll go back to GM. I don’t really care whose logo is on the trunk. I just want a vehicle that I can rely on to start and run as it should for a reasonable number of years. As I also said, if GM becomes an importer of Chery and/or Tata automobiles and they turn out to be decent vehicles I wouldn’t hesitate to buy one.
I’m not really loyal to any brand. Brand loyalty means you stay with them even of they have problems. If I have problems with a Toyota vehicle I’ll jump brands in a heartbeat.
It’s a fair question, why would anyone not hold each make accountable to the same standards? What is also interesting is the ones who condemn the domestics and believe imports are okay with their flaws get extremely defensive as if they personally designed and assembled the vehicle.
Everybody has their favorites and the ones they don’t care for. That’s okay, that’s human nature but why do people get angry, mean and defensive when their favorite has a problem revealed? This cannot be answered here, this is car talk, not a sociology or psychological forum.
All of you have missed the point about this recall. GM held off the release of this car for over 3 years. This should be one of the most flawless cars on the road, and after those 3 years they release the car and the dealers cant sell them because they could catch fire. Im sorry but its stupid mistakes like this is what gives a company a bad name.
Gosh darn it, have I become invisible again? I hate it when that happens. Perhaps this will satisfy you:
I own three Hondas (one car and two motorcycles), and there was one recall on the car. It had to do with faulty floor mat fasteners. If it will make you happy, I will now admonish Honda for selling me faulty floor mat fasteners. SHAME ON YOU, HONDA! DO YOU HEAR ME? If one of those floor mats had shifted and pressed on the gas pedal, my life might have been in danger.
There. Can we now dispense with the distracting side show and get back to the original topic? Please?
For years, I gave GM and Ford a “free pass” on quality issues, because I wanted to “buy American”… but I got SO tired of parts failing, major motor issues, and poor quality construction, that I eventually broke-down, and bought a Subaru… and even with its complex awd system, the Subie has had WAY LESS problems than my Celebrity or my Cadillac or my Bronco… the Japanese DO have problems with their vehicles, but those problems are miniscule compared to the quality issues with Detroit cars, especially Dodge (I could write a novel about all the problems with my Dodge Aires!). On the bright side, the Ford Hybrid Escape my son bought is wonderful (though still not as nice as my daughter’s BMW 3-series) and perhaps all this negativity can be turned around… time will tell.
This recall gives GM more credibility with me in wanting to correct a defect like this instead of waiting until something happens. I remember when I was growing up, we had a gas conversion burner installed in our furnace. One cold snap, the furnace wouldn’t ignite unless we went down and opened and closed the door to the fire box. My dad called the furnace repairman in the middle of the afternoon and his secretary took the message. My dad told him that there was no hurry–we knew how to start the furnace. At 2:00 a.m. in the morning, the repairman came to the house. He apologized for coming so late, but he was worried about the problem when he got the message–he thought there might be a gas valve that would stick open and cause the gas to build up with a resulting explosion. He had been out all day repairing furnaces, but didn’t want to put this off until morning. I give credit to any person or company who cares enough to correct something that could be a safety problem.
In all the testing done of cars, sometimes a problem won’t show up until the cars are out in the field. I remember hearing about one case in the 1950’s where a certain manufacturer’s cars would overheat–but it only happened in certain states. In other states where their cars were registered, there were no overheating problems. It turned out that in states where the cars overheated, the state bureau of motor vehicles issued front license plates as well as plates for the rear. The front plate upset the airflow to the radiator. I’m certain that on the test track, cars don’t have license plates and the problem wouldn’t surface.
I’ve had cars recalled. My Ford Aerostar was recalled because a defective ignition switch might cause a fire. My Ford Windstar was recalled because a resistor for the rear hvac blower might overheat and cause a problem. I am just glad that the manufacturer recalled my car for a repair to save a problem down the road.
My late father had a hernia operation when he was three years old in 1907 that the doctor botched. He had a few problems with this all his life. When he was 96, the hernia popped out and he was taken to the hospital emergency room. I was called and met him there. By the time the doctor could get to him, the hernia had popped back in. The doctor asked if he had had problems before. My dad told him about the botched operation he had had back in 1907 when he was three. He then looked at the doctor and said, “Do you have a malpractice form that I can fill out against this doctor?” At any rate, I give credit to a manufacturer who recalls and fixes a potential problem before a disaster occurs. Humans design products. Humans aren’t perfect and sometimes flaws happen.
I think we are all satisfied with GM’s willingness to bring this issue to light and fix it. The only difference is that some of us believe it should have never been necessary to begin with.
Please allow me to modify your analogy to make it more realistic with the current situation. Let’s say your father had just finished recovering from the hernia operation and received a clean bill of health from his doctor. Then it popped out again the next day. Let’s add that this was a newly developed technique that the doctor assured was foolproof after spending three years perfecting it. All this happened in an era where all doctors have adopted strict quality control procedures to prevent this from happening in the first place. After reexamining your father, the doctor discovered he used this same technique on 1,199 other people. So he decides to bring them back in, put them under anesthesia, and resolve the issue. If you were one of this doctor’s other patients, you might be glad the doctor called you up to make good on his mistake, but if it was me, I would go to a better doctor to get the botched procedure fixed.
My only point is that machines aren’t perfect, because people aren’t perfect and people design and build machines. One of my colleagues told me about a lawnmower that seemed to be really well-designed, yet the housing cracked when the mower was in service out in the field. It turns out that the mower manufacturer put its insignia plate on the mower after the design was was finalized. The holes drilled to attach the plate happened to be placed at the stress point for the mower deck.
I’ve been teaching since 1962. Yet, I’ve still messed up on a derivation that I have probably done hundreds of times. I fix my mistake and go on–I don’t try to cover it up. My students seem to respect this. I’ve had mechanics, even a dealerships, not get a job right. Almost every time when I have gone back, they have admitted a goof-up and made things right. I respect people who own up to a mistake. I bought a cabinet humidifier for my house and it was recalled for a possible electrical problem. I called a toll-free number. They sent the shipping carton and told me when I had packed up the guts of the unit up to call UPS. I sent it in and the problem was corrected and the part was returned to me. Would I buy from that company again? You bet I would.
It would be great if every product off an assembly line worked perfectly and had no defects. Unfortunately, this doesn’t happen. I do gain respect for a company or a person that owns up to a problem and sets things straight.
The Camaro is going to be a fine car, and just to make sure,
Based on GM’s past vehicles I don’t know how you can say that…Their cars have improved…but they still have a ways to go. I truly hope that the Camaro is a reliable vehicle…but it’s way too early to tell.
GM is going into bankruptcy in a few weeks, and they still care enough about their customers to spend whatever it takes to fix this issue.
One more thought: I do a lot of work in applied statistics and a lot of computer work. I have found errors in statistical programs that have been on the market for a long time. We had an operating system on a DEC mainframe that crashed when one of our programmers ran a program he had written to transfer data from one magnetic tape to another. When I found the error in the statistical software, I informed the company and sent them the data for the case that caused the error. A patch was developed to make this statistical procedure work correctly. In the case of the operating system, DEC flew in a couple of engineers that worked for two days to figure out what was happening. DEC then supplied a patch for the operating system. My point is that no matter how much testing is done before a product is released, be it computer software or an automobile, defects can arise out in the field after the product is released that no one thought could happen.
I completely agree with your point about respecting a company that owns up to its product failures and promptly fixes them. However, I know that I would get tired after awhile of having my product fail and have to keep taking it in for repair. After several iterations I would look for another company that built a more reliable product.
I own one of the prime examples of GM knowing about a problem and taking a long time to fix it, a 1976 Vega. GM knew about the overheating problem after the first model year (1970-71) and didn’t fix it until the 1976 model year along with the high oil consumption problem. They took so long to fix it that the engine’s reputation was ruined. Yeah, that was a long time ago, but GM has persisted with this behavior with other issues right up to the present. Their suddenly being proactive is a new philosophy for GM.
This new outlook will slowly change peoples’ perception, but not overnight
Yes, and let’s not forget the GM diesels installed in Oldsmobiles, Buicks and Pontiacs about this time period. Another cover-up of GM was installing Chevrolet engines in Oldsmobiles and not telling anyone. These incidents shake one’s confidence in a company. I hope GM continues with its new proactive philosophy in promptly issueing a recall to fix a defect.
Oh yeah, I remember that. I was in high school at the time and working at a service station. Our first indication was oil filters that were supposed to fit an Olds didn’t, but one meant for a Chevy would fit.
Nope. It’s never too late to do the right thing. And it does not appear that GM will be liquidated. Do you think that their asset will be sold if they declare bankruptcy?
"Based on GM’s past vehicles I don’t know how you can say that…Their cars have improved…but they still have a ways to go. I truly hope that the Camaro is a reliable vehicle…but it’s way too early to tell. "
I guess that I’ve just had unusually good luck with my GM cars. And my Honda, too!
Stay on topic? Exactly my point. Bash one and not the other for the same problems.
Apparently objectivity is a foreign word to some.
So the Camaro is a fire hazard? (1200 cars?)
So a fire hazard is not an issue with a Toyota, huh? (a 123,000 vehicles)
Auto Recall Date: 05/19/2003
Vehicle Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:DELIVERY:HOSES, LINES/PIPING, AND FITTINGS
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 123360
2002 TOYOTA TACOMA Defect Summary:
ON CERTAIN PICKUP TRUCKS, DURING SIDE IMPACT NCAP TEST (I.E. LINCAP TEST), A FLANGE AT THE REAR END OF THE DOUBLE CAB BODY DEFORMED AND INTERFERED WITH THE FUEL INLET HOSE THAT CONNECTS THE FUEL FILLER PIPE AND FUEL TANK, RESULTING IN DAMAGE TO THE FUEL INLET HOSE.
Defect Consequence:
THIS DAMAGE COULD RESULT IN FUEL LEAKAGE, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A FIRE IF IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE.
So what in the hell is the difference? Someone tell me why you’re willing to rip GM a new one and give Toyota a pass on this. If this problem occurred on a GM truck then it would be “shoddy engineering” and they “had plenty of time to work the bugs out”. In regards to a Toyota, it’s paste the smiley face on, tint the glasses a bit rosier, and march off to Apathy Land.
Anyone who thinks the Asian cars are immune to Recalls and TSBs (a TSB is a notice in regards to a chronic problem by the way and can sometimes lead to a recall) is totally uninformed to put it mildly.