I have a 2008 Sedona with the following trouble codes: P0018, P0300, P0302, P0304
I have replaced the coils and plugs, a torn air intake hose, and a camshaft position sensor for the side of the engine with even numbered cylinders.
It still runs rough has a blinking CEL, and gives the same codes.
I found that unplugging any of the myriad of sensors under the hood will keep the ECM in open loop so that it runs like a dream, but as soon as they are plugged back it, the trouble comes back. I used that fact to my advantage to drive the car to the mechanic a few miles away.
After running diagnostics, he says the ECM is bad based on the fact that the number 2 and number 4 fuel injectors stop pulsing after a couple minutes of idling. He says they are not even getting a signal from the ECM. He does not have the equipment necessary to flash a new ECM and recommends going to the dealership for a new one and getting it flashed there.
After contacting the dealership, I have found a new ECM is around $1000-$1500 depending on my VIN (didn’t have that handy since the car is not with me). I asked about a used one. He says that won’t work because once an ECM is flashed with a VIN, it can’t be changed.
Given the rather large amount of used ECMs I found on the market for my vehicle, I find such a statement a little odd. I think the dealer is shoveling some BS in order to sell a part at a handsome markup along with labor.
My question is, if I am being lied to, what do I need in terms of equipment to get a used ECM, install it and flash it with my VIN myself? If such equipment is cost prohibitive, can I contact one of these companies that sells ECMs and have them send me one preprogrammed with my VIN?
You wouldn’t first suspect the ECM in this instance…unless those codes pointed to it…I didnt look them up.
The ECM recieves its info on injector pulse and coil firing via the cam and crank sensors… I would be looking at the lower dollar items before going right to the main ECU
Also…the ECM sends a ground pulse to those injectors…any problems with ground wires and the like will starve the ECM of its ground that it is trying to send to the injectors…or the injectors themselves can be failing. I would just be looking at things like this prior to suspecting the ECM… Do ECM’s go bad? Sure…just not often…at all. UNLESS these vehicles have had a rash of bad ECM’s…look it up on the net. See if others are complaining how they needed to replace it or not.
Sometimes wire harnesses and plugs simply break connection…or are intermittent…those issues are fun to solve…but I have solved many of them. They are the last things you would suspect…but I tell you…I have seen wierd things happen to wires that have no visible damage and or no reason to suspect them…and yet…they lose connectivity out of nowhere. Fun fun fun…
@kj26569
Kia Published A Technical Service Bulletin To Help Their Technicians Diagnose Symptoms Of Rough Running, Poor Acceleration, And Miss-Fire Related Codes, DTCs Including, But Not Limited To P0018, P0300.
P0018 = Crankshaft position - Camshaft position correlation (Bank 2 Sensor A)
P0300 = Random/Multiple cylinder misfire detected
The May/2009 5-page TSB (Group: Engine, Number 046) (with color drawings and color photos) applies to many CVVT Kia engines, including ones in Sedona models.
The bulletin provides information for checking the proper operation of the OCV (Constant Variable Valve Timing Oil Control Valve).
They also include an admonition about making sure that the vehicle is equipped with an OE oil filter.
It might be worth searching, downloading, and having a look at this bulletin. CSA
Thanks. I will pull that valve and check it before I do anything with the computer. Hate to pull the intake plenum off again, but at least I know how to do that from when I replaced the plugs.
You mention injectors being bad and I just read that the ECM will shut down the circuit to an injector if the resistance is too low to protect the circuit.
Anyone know the ohm specs on a fuel injector for this car? I can check the resistance, but I don’t know the range it should be in.
The injectors probably quit working after the ECM sees a misfire and is shutting down fuel delivery to keep from fouling out an expensive catalytic converter. I would start at the beginning, have your mechanic use his scan tool and factory service info, including the service bulletin noted above, to do a more thorough diagnosis of the problem.
Got the van back this afternoon. Checked the injectors. All checked out good.
Pulled the variable timing control valve and found my problem.
After wrestling it to get it out without removing the plenum (a major plus), I found that the screen on it was damaged and part of it had found its way into the holes which kept the piston in the solenoid valve from closing all the way or opening any further. After calling the parts store for a new one, I decided to remove the screen completely and get the jammed part of the screen out and clean up the part.
Once it was cleaned up, I worked the piston back and forth a little and found that it would open up better but still couldn’t quite close all the way. Another wrestling match with the van ensued to get the part back in. Once I put the van back together, it started up fine with no issues. I could tell from the way it started up, I had found the issue. It just didn’t sound right before, almost too loud in a way. Anyway, it ran smoothly, I drove it a few miles, when I got it home, the CEL came on again, but it is still running well.
New codes this time. P0022 which directly relates to the variable valve timing. Found out that it means the timing was being retarded too much, probably from a constant oil flow condition. No surprise, the solenoid I put back in is probably not closing all the way. The new one will fix that.
P0456- Evap system, small leak. I’m not sure about that one. I retightened the gas cap and hope that it might have been loose for now. I’m fixing the major issue first, resetting it, and seeing if the code comes back. Hoping it doesn’t, but if it does, I will have to start checking the evap system for leaks.
Excellent…you are well on your way to solving this. Arent you happy you didn’t buy that BS about needing a new ECM? I mean that wasn’t even logical at that point in time…at all.
“Pulled the variable timing control valve and found my problem.”
“After wrestling it to get it out without removing the plenum (a major plus), I found that the screen on it was damaged and part of it had found its way into the holes which kept the piston in the solenoid valve from closing all the way or opening any further.”
That bulletin that I referred to above mentions debris in the oil control valve. That makes me wonder if debris = damaged screen and perhaps there was a problem with the original part.
@kj26569
I’m happy to hear the time I took with posting information about that TS Bulletin possibly steered you toward finding a solution. CSA
Good for you. Sounds like the advice about checking the VVT valve was spot on. Good call @“common sense answer” . That’s not something I’d automatically think about with misfires, since I’d think if the VVT wasn’t working correctly it would show up mostly as reduced performance, slower than normal acceleration, not misfires. But that’s what happens when I do my own thinking … lol …
Going forward, to prevent a re-occurrence, suggest to make sure you rigorously follow the owner’s manual specs for the type of oil to use and the change intervals, and always use an OEM oil filter. Before VVT there was quite a bit of give and take on the oil specs and oil filter, but VVT makes a lot of demands on the engine oil system so you pretty much have to use exactly what the manufacturer specifies. Best of luck.
Yup…you would have crossed paths with that device prior to getting to the ECM… Beginning with the Cam and Crank Sensor idea you would certainly have met up with the VVt valve since it directly affects those signals if not provides them directly. You just need to think about how things flow and who does what and how…
Welcome to troubleshooting and Good Call everyone…we all throw out different ideas…but they are all along the same river of thought… At least most times…Im glad nobody told you to check the muffler bearings or to change the winter air out of your tires in this post.
“Yup…you would have crossed paths with that device prior to getting to the ECM…”
What? I reread the original post that kicked off this discussion. It looks to me like kj26569 was all set to replace the ECM. He wanted help purchasing and ordering one.
“Welcome to troubleshooting and Good Call everyone…we all throw out different ideas…but they are all along the same river of thought… At least most times…Im glad nobody told you to check the muffler bearings or to change the winter air out of your tires in this post.”
Shucks, that’s what I was going to suggest… that or the wobbulator shaft. I’m just out here in the peanut gallery with the other hicks. I’ve been working on cars for 50+ years. You’d think by now I would have learned something, oh well.
You were right in suggesting to check other things before diving into an ECM. Well at least you tried. That’s the important thing. CSA
But he did have major vtec issues…the main item that controls it was plugged. First place to look on that vehicle. I didnt know this OP’s vehicle had variable timing…but I should have known
@ok4450
"Sounds like the result of an extended oil change regimen."
It does sound like that, but reread what the owner had to say about his Oil Control Valve… "Pulled the variable timing control valve and found my problem.
After wrestling it to get it out without removing the plenum (a major plus), I found that the screen on it was damaged and part of it had found its way into the holes which kept the piston in the solenoid valve from closing all the way or opening any further. After calling the parts store for a new one, I decided to remove the screen completely and get the jammed part of the screen out and clean up the part."
When I found the TSB, I thought it a little strange that the manufacturer puts out a bulletin for engine running problems that specifically covers inspection of the CVVT oil control valve and in that bulletin advises to check it for a foreign object like an aluminum chip or flashing and they show a color photo of some object jammed in a valve port.
When I read that it caused me to think that’s why they have a TSB for the valve. Now, I’m not saying that the manufacturer has a problem that they aren’t notifying customers about or avoiding extending a warranty or anything…
I love this stuff. I am sure that most of the folks who read these posts like a good mystery as much or more than I do. I know you do.
Yes I do and I did not forget the part about the screen disentegration. My point, which I did not dwell on, is that lack of regular oil changes could have caused the oil to become acidic and corrosive.
The screen could fail metallurgically but the odds of this are very, very low. The screen could be damaged by the contaminants and acidity of aged motor oil. Below is a partial cut and paste from SAE. I’ve seen corroded screens in fuel filters, fuel injectors, etc. so why not a screen in a valve timing mechanism.
Corrosion in gasoline engines can be traced, in practically all cases, to condensation of the water vapor in the gases of combustion and of moisture in the air upon the cold surfaces of the cylinders and crankcase walls. It is found in the form of rust in crankcases and cylinders and is made evident by etched wristpins, valve tappets, timing chains and other engine parts.
The most commonly accepted theory for the cause of corrosion is the action of sulphuric acid, which is formed by the combination of sulphur in the fuel and lubricating oil with water entering or generated in the engine. According to A. Ludlow Clayden, water collects in the engine at the rate of 80 cc. per hr. at zero temperature. The rate at which the sulphur collects would, no doubt, depend largely upon the sulphur content of the fuel and oil used. Sulphuric acid as a corrosive agent will not be dealt with in this paper, which is concerned only with water, its sources and effects, and means of avoiding its presence or of neutralizing its effects.
@ok4450
That’s interesting reading. I have seen screens in outdoor equipment (sitting for extended time periods) that have disintegrated. I now understand your theory. We haven’t heard back from kj26569 in quite some time and possibly never will. Perhaps he could shed more light on your hypothesis.
What do think about the reason for TSB and possibly some kind of issue with the control valve or about the flashings in the oil passages? Do you think the manufacturer has discovered and recognized some kind of problem and wants to help their technicians, but doesn’t want to open a can of worms?
I love these mysteries and I know that you do. I’ve seen you mention more than once that when an engine fails you have to open it up enough to see why, even if it’s not going to be repaired. That’s how we learn, by curiosity and it’s probably why you are a great mechanic and I do recognize that and respect what you have to say. I learn from it. CSA
