2006 Prius: 120K to Fix or Trade In

General Discussion
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@MikeInNH, I’m not looking to get anyone riled up here. I don’t disagree with your math. I just think there is no need for math of any kind. It just distracts from the real issue with hybrids, which has very little to do with price per gallon, miles per year, payback periods etc.

<b>For a great many people the issue is gasoline consumption. Period.

I suggest you get an accountant. You’re going to pay $5,000 MORE for a hybrid…and drive 10k miles a year…for a whopping savings of about $500/year. It’ll take you 10 years to make up the cost difference.

See, the statement I put forth is already being misunderstood or misconstrued. Why would my accountant have any idea how much gasoline a hybrid uses? You’re confusing amount of gasoline with cost of gasoline. My assertion is that a Prius, Insight, Escape, etc., uses less gasoline than a similar car with a conventional engine. The cost of the gasoline is irrelevant, more so with hybrids than with other cars. I’ll take your $500/year fuel savings and say that to the average Prius-owning household that amounts to a fraction of a percent of yearly income. People who buy hybrids aren’t squeaking by on minimum wage or living paycheck to paycheck. Monthly car costs just aren’t an issue to these people. I agree with your math but would simply state it differently, with pride. “I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so.”

Like I said above, if you can’t afford to save fuel, that’s an entirely separate subject for discussion. For another perspective, you can imagine that a small auto shop generates a dozen empty cardboard boxes per day. Should I just throw them in the dumpster or should I recycle them? Does your answer depend on how much the city charges me to have a recycling bin they have to empty every week?

As for the water pumps, I’m at home, away from my service info, but an 06 Prius will have one water pump for the engine, one for the inverter, one for the HVAC (to keep heat in the cabin when the engine is not running), and I seem to seem to recall something about an aux pump, but I’m not positive. Anyway, it has at least 3, so 4 wouldn’t be a stretch.

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"I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so."

But you’re saying it like you’re saving money…WHICH YOU AREN’T. You’re LOSING money because of the upfront cost.

Now if you’re buying a hybrid because of some need to support the environment by using less gas…then fine…that’s your right…and I applaud you for it. But don’t make a statement about the 48mph and saying it only costs $500/year like it’s a great financial windfall for you - because it’s NOT.

If you want to buy a hybrid because you want to support the technology or because you want to do your part for the environment by not using as much gas…fine…great.

But don’t say you’re buying a hybrid because it’s saving you money when you only drive 10k miles a year.

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@MikeInNH Well said. I spend a good deal of time performing LIFE CYCLE COSTING for industrial clients.

You always have to add the purchase cost, operating cost and maintenance & repairs as well as the cost of money and tax treatment to arrive at the cost per year or cost per mile, using discounted cash flow.

Before buying a new car in 2007 I compared the VW Golf diesel with an equivalent Toyota. The government estimate for fuel cost for 14,000 mile per year of driving was higher for the VW than the Toyota, based on the more expensive diesel cost. In Europe they tax diesel a lot less so it comes out cheaper.

The maintenance and repair estimate for the VW over 200,000 miles were way higher than the for the Toyota as well, base on published data and polling mechanics and transmission shops.

My plumber is German and he has never owned a non German car. So he likes his Jetta, because he does not know any better. His truck, however, is a Dodge Ram.

I once listened to a construction company president at a convention brag about the fantastic mileage his Mercedes diesel got and how much money he was saving. I did not ask him about depreciation and upkeep costs.

I agree that a Prius has above average reliability and in taxi service has shown to cost mush less per mile over its life. However, if you only drive 10,000 miles per year or less it makes no sense. A number of items in a Prius will age and need replacing regardless of miles driven. If you plan to retire with one and expect 25 years of service, you may find parts hard to get and those expensive replacements may come in year 18 or so. In such a case, I would buy a reliable, high volume economy car that I can get repaired readily and cheaply 20 years from now.

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My original point keeps getting lost for some reason. Driving a hybrid is, in my opinion, about using less gasoline, not about the COST of the gasoline, the money spent or saved in buying, operating, and eventually selling the vehicle. I think for most hybrid drivers the dollar amount of fuel savings aren’t relevant.

It’s not about saving money, losing money, spending more here or there, the total lifetime operating cost, tax breaks or anything else.

Both of my daily drivers are V-8s not really noted for their economy. I’m a car guy and a horsepower nut. And the price of gas doesn’t really matter to me. I need it, I’m going to buy it. It’s like milk or shoes for the kids. I think hybrid drivers are the other side of the coin. They try to drive as efficiently as possible, regardless of the price of gas.

Of the dozen or so Prius drivers who trust their car maintenance to me, none of them ever said they bought the car to save money. They bought it to save gasoline. Not dollars, but gallons. Prius owners tend to be diligent about maintenance, some opt for synthetic oil when it’s not required, all do scheduled maintenance on a timely basis and none have asked for anything other than Toyota approved parts and fluids. Prius owners tend to be educated and make informed decisions about their transportation needs. I just can’t imagine that the dollar cost of purchase is anywhere near the top of the list of pros and cons when it comes to buying a Prius. Using your $500/year figure, I don’t see that a household with an income of say, $100,000 is going to be swayed one way or the other by a cost or savings of $500 per year.

I agree completely with the idea that for people who do a cost/benefit analysis and figure depreciation and operating costs into buying a car, a hybrid is probably not the choice for them.

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@asemaster - you’re exactly right. I think of it as an option, one that I enjoy every time I fill up. I could have spent similar money on a much faster, more powerful car, but I’d never use that power. I found in my previous V6 I NEVER had to floor it. Did it for fun sometimes, but never had to. Now I’m driving my car to maximize its particular ‘performance’, every day, every mile.

But is a hybrid the absolute cheapest way to own a car? No.

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@asemaster, said it very well.
We just installed our 3rd tankless, NG water heater. The 1 & 2 units were old style, relatively low efficiency but much higher efficiency when compared to tank heaters. Tankless heaters are more expensive as a retrofit over the lifetime of the unit. This new condensing unit will cost us a bit more than $2200 since we redo the vent pipe to stainless. NG prices have been dropping from several years.

It is not about the cost but using LESS
We also have a Prius and I got a scooter to reduce the my overall transportation cost besides to using less gas, which the scooter has a 4:1 advantage over my deprecated '99 Honda.

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The only thing I did buy because of its pure $$ advantage is a washlet bidet. [Less TP, and we have a septic that needs less cleanouts]

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A Hybrid is really only cost effective if drive a certain amount of miles per year. The extra cost you pay for a hybrid only makes sense when you're driving over 20k miles per year. There just isn't any savings with a hybrid when you only drive 10k miles a year.

Comparing the Prius two and the Matrix, it would take me 16.5 years to make up the cost savings in gas, the number of miles I drive per year. The Malibu hybrid would take nearly 30 years to make up the difference between the hybrid and 2lt model. Lexus GS 450h and GS 350 would take 46 years. By comparison, the Escalade 4/AWD would take just under 7 years

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Great comparison site. Fusion hybrid takes only 3 years.

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@bscar Good reference! Although the additional maintenance and repair costs are not addressed, it gives a good comparison. For me, driving a Prius 2 6000 miles a year and 50% in town, the break-even cost compared to a Matrix is nearly 9 years.

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@bscar; based on Prius vs Matrix, if we were going to buy new (we always go 2-3 yr used CPO) for my wife’s 70% city driving, we are even at 3.6 years. I guess since we keep them until they fall apart, the next 10 years is just profit. Now guessing repairs is challenging. Statistically the Prius should cost more, in reality if you get a lemon Matrix (or Prius), then all bets are off.

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My original point keeps getting lost for some reason.

The reason for that is because you keep changing your argument.

First you say…

I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so.

Now you’re saying…

Driving a hybrid is, in my opinion, about using less gasoline, not about the COST of the gasoline, the money spent or saved in buying, operating, and eventually selling the vehicle. I think for most hybrid drivers the dollar amount of fuel savings aren't relevant.

If you don’t believe that money is an issue…then why in your first statement did you mention how much money you were saving per year??

As I stated (WHICH YOU SEEMED TO IGNORE)…if your true goal is to support an emerging technology or to consume less gas for the environment…that’s great…I applaud you. But that’s NOT what you’ve been arguing. YOU keep bringing up cost and how much MONEY it’s saving you per year.

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“I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so.”

That’s not my argument, that’s what people who buy and drive hybrids think. Like someone above said, it’s like an option. You can say “I drive a big SUV with 22 inch bling wheels and it only costs me $500/year to do so.” It’s the same argument. You get what you want and the price is largely irrelevant.

I’ve never said that driving a hybrid will save money. Who cares if it does or not? Hybrids were never designed or marketed to save money. Most people who buy hybrids (and this isn’t backed up by data, just my observations) would buy them whether gas costs $4/gallon or $2.

Look at it this way. I have about a 15 of those recessed can lights that use 60W flood lights in my house. After 2 or 3 burned out, I spent an afternoon and replaced all of them with CFL lights. My kids have a habit of leaving lights on. I don’t remember how much 15 of those cost, but it was certainly quite a bit more than incandescent bulbs. How long is my ROI on those? Don’t know, don’t care. I’m using less electricity now. That’s all that matters.

I fully agree with your math regarding cost/benefit of hybrids, and I’m personally opposed to any kind of tax breaks or credits for hybrid owners. I just don’t agree that the math is part of the decision to buy one.

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<blockquote>“I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so.”

That’s not my argument,

You’re the one who said it. I was quoting YOU.

Hybrids were never designed or marketed to save money.

Oh yes they were…and still are. They advertise the MONEY savings on gas. That have from day one.

Most people who buy hybrids (and this isn't backed up by data, just my observations) would buy them whether gas costs $4/gallon or $2.

Many people are snookered by the advertising that they are saving money by buying a Hybrid. They don’t have the math skills to figure it out for themselves. They see the yearly gas savings and they don’t understand that the total cost savings for many of them just isn’t there. I know at least one person who bought a hybrid believing they are going to save a bundle over the years…He didn’t consider the upfront cost as part of the equation. His sole determination was how much money he would save on gas…PERIOD. He only drives 12k miles a year (IF THAT). And he only plans on keeping his vehicle 5 years. And he firmly believes he’s saving money. Yes…there are more like him.

I just don't agree that the math is part of the decision to buy one.

Since a vehicle is usually one’s second most expensive purchase…if math ISN’T a factor in your decision…then you must have a lot of money to burn. It’s NOT how much money you make…but how you spend it.

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@texases @galant @docnick

I used 95% city driving for me, since I’d consider that be be a somewhat fair assessment; I do do a bit of long distance driving, but not very much. I live 3 miles from work, with only 1 stop light and a couple stop signs along the way, but I can get a good bit of speed going on 1 road. The store is roughly 3 miles from my home, as well, though this is through town and has 5 or 6 stoplights along the way.
I also know that they’re just using fuel costs to factor in the price difference, but for some people, that’s all they’re gonna look at. I do wish we could select whatever vehicle we wanted to compare fuel savings. I know a few years ago some might have compared their Excursion/Suburban to a Prius to see how long the fuel savings would take to break even when gas first broke $4/gallon and/or during the cash for clunkers fiasco

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I was using 90% for city driving, that’s what I drive.

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@bscar2;
You can still compare any car you want. Just go to fueleconomy.gov; on top left hand click on compare cars. They give you the generic numbers, but you can click on the personalize option which is what I always do. With that tool, we figured that with all the local driving my wife did in our old minivan, we can pay a lease on a Prius. Not that we were going to lease a Prius, but here I was having a part-time job keeping a 14 yr old Dodge Caravan with 160K miles, on the road constantly fixing and changing parts, not to mention there was no paint left on the roof or hood. We thought we were being frugal by not using the newer cars, alas, she is not driving the Camry and we are deciding on another commuter car.

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I agree that looking solely at dollar price a car is probably the second highest priced things people buy. But if you expense it on a monthly basis excuding insurance it probably falls somewhere between the cable bill and groceries. There are many monthly expenses that would dwarf $500/year for an average household.

Of course we’re never going to agree on this @MikeInNH. And I’ll give you that cost can be a factor. Few people have money to burn, especially not auto mechanics. But for all those I know and deal with who bought hybrids, on a list of top 10 things influencing the decision, cost and payback was probably 8 or 9. Using less gas–regardless of cost and ROI–was #1.

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@MikeInNH,
"I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so."
is NOT saying he is saving money, it says very plainly that it is COSTING him money. He sounds like someone who is glad to be spending extra to use less gas, not someone saving money.

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"I drive a car that gets 48mpg and it only costs me $500/year for 10 years to do so." is NOT saying he is saving money, it says very plainly that it is COSTING him money. He sounds like someone who is glad to be spending extra to use less gas, not someone saving money.

That’s kinda what I thought. I guess there are people who would buy a hybrid to use LESS gas…and forget about the overall savings. I’ve never met that person. I have met people who were led to believe that hybrid is going to save you money no matter how many miles you drive or how many years you own it.