2004 Saturn Ion 2: Does the catalytic converter *have to be* so much?

Oh, and way to single out the most trivial objection raised to white-collar work (clearly indicated as such by context) and focusing in on that.

Like the joke:
“What do you do for a living?”
“I’m a journalist.”
“Oh, so you’re one of those lecherous, besotted, ink-stained b*****Ds, huh?”
[Offended]: “Hey now, this is the modern era! We use computers! No more ink stains here!”

Given an understanding of context, one can appreciate the humor of objecting to the most trivial detail. I guess you’re scratching your head on this one, Mike…

quoth Mikey:
...people with HI IQ's do NOT do menial labor for a living</blockquote>

Ah…back to NOT posting the WHOLE quote…Are your arguments that weak…

Here’s what I said…

And I responded with from my OWN personal experience that people with HI IQ’s do NOT do menial labor for a living

OBVIOUSLY when I said that “from my own personal experience”…It did NOT include everyone. Nor did I expect it to. OBVIOUSLY there will be people out there with high-IQ’s who do menial labor…My whole argument was against what irlandes said that MOST people with HI IQ’s do menial labor. All I can say is WOW.

And as for your mensa society…YEA RIGHT…

If you didn’t mean to generalize, you would’ve used the singular “person,” not “people.” (Unless you’re Sybil???)

If you didn't mean to generalize, you would've used the singular "person," not "people." (Unless you're Sybil???)

WONG…person means ONE…The PEOPLE I know (multiple) with high IQ’s do NOT want to do menial labor jobs…

PEOPLE doesn’t mean EVERYONE.

I’m sorry…your statement then translates to: “I’m smart. I don’t like laboring for a living. My equally-smart co-workers also don’t like getting sweaty, so it’s clear smarties are biased against labor.”

Do yourself a favor. Put down the [metaphorical] shovel, quit digging…and Google “confirmation bias.”

"I'm smart. I don't like laboring for a living. My equally-smart co-workers also don't like getting sweaty, so it's clear smarties are biased against labor."

That is the DUMBEST statement I ever heard. You have a problem my friend…seek help.

I had a recommendation for a guy in the backwoods o MN to do tiling. He had been a child prodigy in math, upper 2%, went to college at 16 I think and was doing well until he pointed out an error in a professors teachings. His story he got blackballed by the profeser and now doing tiling, plumbing, cutting down trees or whatever. 1 example
I had the numbers for Mensa but never really cared. I am not doing manual labor, but have such a wide variety of responsibilites I find it enjoyable. I might be soldering new capacitors to motherboards, maintaining voip, network infrastructure, studying up for fiber optic cert., sql server DB administrator, AV and security, alarm system etc., training cad-gis to employees as we havew just migrated from oracle - microstation to geomedia-sql server, basically in charge of everything that has a plug or a battery. except vehicles for the most part, as we have a full time mechanic, though we do work together on some projects.

Somehow this conversation turned into a complicated conversation about working classes, relational phenotypes (adroitness vs. intelligence), and rhetorical/logical critique. Yikes.

Yah, does that mean they’re a bunch of ‘‘mensos’’ ?

( spanish masculine for ‘‘mensa’’ )

Getting back to the meat and potatoes: I’d like to demonstrate a very respectable, polite, and friendly bit of umbrage to something @asemaster said. You said:

Third, people often assume that they can look at an estimate including parts and labor, bring their own parts, and get the work done for the labor quoted. That's just not how it works.

Now, in my opinion, that is exactly the way it works. Labor costs x, parts cost y. WHy devide it out if that’s not the case? If the labor and the parts are not how you’re actually representing - if what you’re saying is that the labor would actually cost more without the parts - then the labor does, de facto, COST MORE, parts or no. What it sounds like is happening is that this practice obscures the actual cost of your labor under the shadow of the (over?)-inflated price of the part. So, if your labor costs more, why not just say that? Why hide the labor cost behind the parts?

I’m not trying to give you a hard time. But in my business, it works just like that. I’m in business for myself: IT consultation. If my company is going to perform, say, RAM upgrades, I will give a line-iten estimate for the RAM plus installation. It’s two separate things. If they want to buy their own RAM, we will talk to them about the RAM we choose, why, and its price. If they still want to buy their own RAM, we will advise them what to stay away from, but at that point, it’s their machine. We get them to sign off (waive) the risk and we perform the installation at the install price (though we suggest an additional RAM test). So, there it is. Labor is x, parts are y. Can you (or anybody here) help me - and I’m not being sarcastic; this is a straight-forward question - understand why that is not how it’s done?

Cheers!

As someone who is definitely NOT a candidate for mensa membership, I’m just going to sit back, relax, and enjoy the show

BTW . . . in Germany, mensa means “cafeteria”

No disrespect intended to anyone, guys!

@jamhost76:

No offense taken. I suppose the easiest answer is that that is the way it has always been done. We divide out parts and labor so people know what they are getting. I think it would be impossible to try to get an entire industry to change the way it does business. We need that parts profit. Approximately 1/3 of our gross profit (more in some cases) comes from parts. I don’t think the entire automotive industry is willing to raise labor rates half again as much and then just trade dollars on half the gross sales that come in the door.

I think fear of competitiveness is another. Sure I could sell my parts at cost and raise my labor rate 50%. But many consumers compare shops based on labor rates. There’s even a website that does that. Think of all the business I would lose. Any car with an extended warranty contract, any fleet service vehicles, any parts that come with a warranty that covers labor charges, all have clauses pertaining to the hourly labor rate they will pay. If you sell a customer some RAM that fails under warranty, and the RAM maker will only pay you $60/hr while your labor rate is $120, you’ve lost $60 on that re-repair.

As for the mark-up on parts, I could easily turn that around and ask why don’t you mark up that price of that RAM for your customer? You’re letting him use your money to buy the part, you deserve something for your effort. Why tie up your capital and lose the buying power of your dollars and not expect anything in return? I would think raising the labor rate to compensate for the lack of profit on parts seems more underhanded than just charging more for the part. Assuming the RAM is about half the total ticket (as parts and labor are for cars) that’s a lot of your money to be tying up.

Half-joking about that, but seriously, the mark up on parts actually began as a discount on parts to customers who buy in quantity. You need a widget for your car, you go and buy one from the dealer/parts store. But I go and say “Hey, I’m going to buy 20 of these this month, that guy is only buying one. Do I get a break?” And so the vendor says “sure, if you have a business license and resale certificate I’ll give you X% off.” Try it. Next time you’re at an auto parts store, buy 36 oil filters and 15 cases of oil. See if they’ll give you a price break.

Another thing to consider is that parts and labor are essentially the same mechanism to shop owners. Shops may charge $90/hr to repair your car, but certainly don’t pay the mechanic $90/hr. Shops buy and sell parts, buy and sell labor. And of course they mark up both. The entire business is a for-profit venture. If part of it is not making you money it’s costing you money. I find it odd that people complain that we buy a part for $10 and sell it for $16 but not that we buy labor for $25/hr and sell it for $90.

There are number of reasons to keep parts purchases “in house.” Often the more we buy from a vendor the better our price bracket becomes. Another is quality. The quality of the part has a great deal to do with the outcome of the repair. I won’t install a rebuilt water pump someone brings in because I have no interest in lowering the quality of my work. Another is time. I can’t be waiting around for you to bring me the fuel pump your car needs while your car is tying up a money-making stall.

If someone wants to bring his own parts I’ll adjust my labor rate to make up for the lost profit had I sold the parts. If you like the quality of our workmanship then you’ll pay it. If you’re just looking to save money on your car repair then we’re not the shop for you.

I think fear of competitiveness is another. Sure I could sell my parts at cost and raise my labor rate 50%.

I guess it’s different where you guys live…Because around here…the mechanics buy from these local parts stores. They get a good discount (which I can’t get). And then they mark up the price to what it would cost me if I bought the part from that store. Their prices aren’t out of line…and I TRUST the quality of their parts - at least a lot more then I trust places like ADAP or PepBoys.

Over half of what I buy comes from local wholesalers, carries multiple lines, some OEM, and won’t sell to the public. The rest comes from local stores. Occasionally I’ll need something and have to get it from Autozone, O’reilly, etc. Last time I needed something from them, my cost was $16 with a recommended list of $18. Wow, a whopping $2. In that case, I have to sell something for $26 that the customer can go buy for $18. I remember when “list price” actually meant something.

The problem isn’t mechanics marking up parts. It’s chain stores whoring themselves out (excuse the terminology) in their race to the bottom.

places like ADAP
MikeInNH:
I got a laugh from that because I still occasionally call it ADAP too.
IIRC, it went from American Discount Auto Parts (ADAP) to Auto Palace to AutoZone.

verrry eenterestink.

@asemaster. Thanks. That’s a fair assessment. A minor detail: I do, indeed, mark up my RAM - significantly. But, if the customer wants to get the part elsewhere, as I said, I will explain why mine is better but, ultimately, I don’t stop them and the installation still costs the same. Then again, my industry doesn’t seem to have exactly the same forces pushing against it as yours. And that may be the key distinction.

In the case I’m dealing with here, I’m seeing $350 dollar direct-fit cats with pretty handsome warrantees attached. With those criteria, I’m wishing my mechanic would be willing to at least talk. It’s not like I haven’t been going there for 13 years or anything. I’m going to get a second opinion this week. We’ll see what happens.

Why should the auto mechanic pricing system be any different than a plumber, electrician, HVAC technician, lawyer, or doctor?

Are any of those professions throwing in PVC pipe, breaker boxes, condensers, copies and depositions, or medical supplies at their real cost; all depending upon their career path?

@ok4450, I don’t think I ever suggested they should charge wholesale cost. Nor, as I mentioned, do I charge wholesale in my business model. But, my (retail-priced) parts and labor are line items as parts and labor, period; if any of those line items is unwanted, the price for the rest remains the same (e.g. the labor doesn’t go up if they want different parts).

What I did suggest is that if I find a competitively priced equivalent part I would, at best, want to talk about my alternatives or, at the least, I’d rather have them talk turkey and tell me straight that they’re unwilling to go without selling their own retail-priced parts for strictly commercial reasons (as opposed to giving me esoteric fluff about top-quality parts and warrantees issues, which I’m not inclined to believe since they won’t tell me specifics like brands or warrantee parameters).

My mechanic is a used car dealer, but really good, I bought an 03 trailblazer with 83k, and I wanted to do routine upkeep. Bought the expensive plugs, and could not even see where the plugs went in, then found and got scared of messing with coil over plugs, 7 or 8 bucks each I recall 5 or 6 years ago, I paid a high price for oem plugs, and mechanic time for replacement. Glad I did it, but no parts warranty hassle as their only mention was I am glad you got this plug that superceded the old plug. 70k later still ok