BS. The EVR is clearly NOT in the fuel pump, according to the document hellokit posted. Check page 22 for a clear diagram of the EGR system, including the orifice as described by Tester.
I am also suspicious of the fuel pressure claims. High fuel pressure like that would KILL your gas mileage, and cause visibly black sooty smoke out of the tailpipe. I’d get a second opinion before doing it.
I have a few problems with what I’ve read so far.
First, even if the cat were plugged the engine would just die. I’ve never heard of an exhaust system building enough pressure to blow up an EGR valve. This makes me suspect that fuel vapors are getting in there.
Second, I suspect that he fuel vapors and some source of heat energy caused the explosion and that same explosion may have taken out the cat converter. The first stage of the converter is a honeycomb of thin ceramic coated with the catalyst. An explosion could take out the catalyst, and I suspect another one took out the catalyst in the second converter. Blow up that ceramic and it’ll plug the flow through the converter.
In short, I think he’s fixing the results of the explosion rather than the cause. For the cause he may want to look for a reason for raw gas vapor to be entering the exhaust stream and a source of ignition. He needs to start looking at the valves and possible ignition sources.
Oh, and I agree with Bustedknuckles. High fuel pressure would cause rich running and possibly a flooded engine, not an exploding EGR valve and exploded catalyst substrate.
Perhaps another shop…
Thanks for the response, and i think its BS too…and you guys are my second opinion. My third opinion will be tomorrow with my very trustworthy mechanic. The ONLY reason this car went back this particular dealer was to get a replacement cat and EGR valve for free.
I get 15mpg so that is not good…my research into high fuel pressure found this:
If pressure is high and amperage is above specification, check:
? Possible restricted regulator and/or fuel return line
see my repsonse to bustedknuckles…yes another shop is waiting.
And i agree they are just replacing broken parts and not fixing the problem.
Thanks!!!
Cool.
My comment about the valves was thus: if you had an exhaust valve not closing fully, when the piston went up on the compression stroke it would push raw fuel into the exhaust, and when the spark plug fired it’s resultant explosion would propogate right past the valve and out into the exhaust.
I look forward to the shop’s findings.
I’m inclined to go along with an intake explosion rather than a clogged converter.
One would think a plastic vacuum solenoid would blow up or a vacuum hose would pop off before a steel EGR would become uncrimped and scatter.
That fuel pressure is way high and I see no way a used pump, or a new one, would put out that much fuel pressure without there being an underlying fault.
Those faults could be a stuck fuel pressure regulator or a fuel return line restriction.
While the latter is rare it can happen.
My experience with plugged cats is they will idle but absolutely no power.
This drawing shows the Fuel Pressure & Temperature Sensor (FP & T) on top of the engine: http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152801e8fdd Pull the hose off and see if there is any fuel in the vacuum hose. There should not be any fuel in the vacuum hose. If there is, the fuel pressure signal sent to the engine computer will be in error, and the fuel will go into the vacuum lines to whichever vacuum line, or intake manifold, has the lowest vacuum. The lowest vacuum, in route to the intake manifold, may be the EGR Valve. I don’t have the complete vacuum distribution diagram. Your repairer should have that diagram.
The FP & T Sensor has a vacuum line which, in the usual applications, controls the fuel pressure; but, in your system the vacuum doesn’t control the fuel pressure. The fuel pressure on your car is 70 psi, which is only 5 psi high. The FP & T Sensor vacuum diaphragm may be ruptured. This ruptured diaphragm would allow raw fuel to go into the vacuum hose–and on from there.
You haven’t said anything about the check engine light being on. Is it, and what is the DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code)? I expect something like P1211, or P1236.
We await your response.
Edited to correct errors caused by lack of data.
my “real” mechanic was too busy to pin down today…i will try again tomorow.
But i will not be having the dealer do anything to this vehicle…
Will you show him this forum on a pc screen, download and printed copy, or rely on a condensed verbal version? Which way contains more accurate details?
the light sometimes comes on…but not while i was last driving it…and there are no codes that can be pulled. We checked.
I showed my trusted mechanic this and i also told him what the dealer said about the fuel pump needing to be replaced. He said that he believes that it is not the fuel pump, but like has been said here a couple times, the fuel pressure regulator.
But he also had a hunch that the fuel presure regulator was a module that was mounted onto the fuel pump and he did not think they could be replaced seperately and if that was the case he thought the dealer should get a crack at replacing it.
I called the dealer and spoke to the service manager and i gently asked him if it could possibly be the fuel pressure regulator and not the fuel pump. He replied that it was indeed no the fuel pump but there was no way to replace just the fuel pressure and agreed that the person who told me it was the fuel pump should have explained that better to me in the beginning. I told him i was going to with hold payment for a week or two in order to verify if it was fixed, if that was alright with him i told him to go ahead and replace the part. He said he understood and would replace it and verify that it was fixed before giving me back my car…
the saga continues…
I can’t find the data, but, I think the engine computer controls the fuel pressure. There is a fuel pressure & temperature sensor on the engine, and a fuel module (in the fuel tank) with which the engine computer controls the fuel pump on and off time.
If I had the factory data, which the dealer has access to, I would know for sure. So, it’s a matter of having the data and reading the data.
If the engine computer controls the fuel pressure, by controlling the fuel pump on and off times, the high fuel pressure wouldn’t be cured by changing the fuel pump. But, if there is a fuel pressure regulator nestled with the fuel pump, that (changing the fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator) might fix it.
I checked at alldata.com. The PCM (engine computer) does control the fuel pump run speeds and run times which controls the fuel pressure. It uses inputs from various sensors to do so. One of these sensors is the Fuel Pressure & Temperature Sensor (FP&T), which is on top of the engine.
The fuel pressure spec is 55 - 65 PSI max set by FPDM (Fuel Pump Driver Module) which controls the fuel pump relays. This must be the maximum value because the PCM controls fuel pressure by controlling the fuel pump module. Confusing, isn’t it?
Who knows if the dealer’s mechanic got the fuel pressure, of 70 PSI, from the FP&T Sensor (using a Ford scan tool), or with a direct fuel pressure test gauge? I wouldn’t hasten to change a fuel pump for a pressure of 70 PSI.
You need to concentrate on what is causing the engine to run so rich. Some of the things are: A “cold” indicating engine coolant temperature sensor (ects), misfire, fuel pressure excessive, retarded timing, dirty air filter, dirty MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor, egr valve system, idle air control valve (iacv), oxygen sensors, thermostat stuck open, etc.
Stay in touch.
More help on checking the EGR System: http://free-auto-repair-advice.blogspot.com/2007/08/understanding-ford-dpfe-and-egr-system.html
Edited using newer data.
To see if this trouble is really caused by excessive fuel pressure and as a easy test perhaps some sort of restrictor could be put in the fuel line to see if that makes a difference in the problem.
The lowered fuel pressure at the fuel rail would be detected by the FP&T Sensor and reported to the PCM. The PCM would, probably, call for more fuel pressure from the fuel pump to compensate.
But, if a restrictor could be placed in the fuel line after the FP&T Sensor…
Here are the PCM pin out charts, with descriptions, and test voltages, that your mechanic may use. These voltage checks will show what the sensors and actuators are telling the engine computer, and what the computer’s responses are, etc: http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152801e8f98
Reading all the responses is a real education. Some of you guys are really getting into this and I’m looking forward to the outcome.
Have no clue myself but I’m still not sure a few extra pounds of fuel pressure will find its way into the EGR and cause it explode without some help. Ford seems to have ignition coil problems and it seems unlikely, but could an errant spark cause a mistimed fuel detonation in a one or more cylinders blowing hot exhaust gases back in to the intake manifold and set off the ERG in the process?
One thing that may really help is to monitor the O2 sensor before the CAT and see what it is telling about situation. To see if the system is running way too rich.
The fuel flow (injection) is 'way too high! The question is, “Why?”, first; and, what to do about it, secondly. Some reasons:
The fuel pressure (supposedly) is 70 psi. Let’s assume that this value is at idle. I think that, at idle, the fuel pressure should be 30 - 45 psi. The allowable fuel pressure (at max engine output?) is 55 - 65 psi. If the fuel pressure is 70 psi, at idle, why? That’s where your ace mechanic comes in, to find out why.
What directly controls fuel pressure? As I understand your ‘fuel control system’, the PCM (engine computer) gets data from the ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature), IAT (Intake Air Temperature), MAF (Mass Air Flow), O2 (oxygen) sensors, and the FP&T (Fuel Pressure & Temperature) sensors.
The PCM uses this data to control the fuel pump module, the fuel pump relay (before the FP), and another fuel pump relay (after the FP). The PCM is constantly energizing and de-energizing these relays to control fuel pump action (duty cycle).
The mechanic needs to check the values of the sensors to the PCM; then, the duty cycle of the fuel pump module.
All of this stuff is in the Ford scan tool/computer, in the factory repair manual, and in the alldata.com charts. All that is left is for someone to use it.
The voltage values (or, frequencies) of the sensors vary with engine speed and load. The voltage values need to be compared to the spece’d values at different engine speeds/loads. Here are some of those expected values (use the values for the 3.0L engine): http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152801e8fbc
This Ford Motor Company pdf “2001 MY OBD System Operation” may be of interest, especially as it involves the catalytic converter operation. http://community.cartalk.com/posts/list/2118826.page