Natural gas stations coming soon

@dagosa

Unlike natural gas, there is no glut of oil worldwide, and the $120 international price of oil dictates what you pay for gasoline, not an excess refining capacity in the USA.

Oil is an internationally traded commodity and Americans are lucky to have to import 50% of their crude oil. And the oil that comes from Canada, comes in at significantly lower prices than internationally priced crude. Oilsands oil from Canada sells for $20 less than worldprice.

Countries like Holland have huge refining capacity and they export gasoline worldwide, all at interantional prices. The pump price in Holland is about $9 per gallon.

In short, you CANNOT make cheap gasoline from expensive oil, no matter how much refining capacity you gave!!!

Yep, the government is GREAT at running things. Last time we got rid of price controls, guess what happened? Prices dropped and supplies went up. And regulate natural gas prices? When they’re the lowest they’ve been in years? Why?

Sorry folks, we don’t have the ability in the US to dictate prices.

Nor should we try.

I seem to recall that price and market government controls were tried in another country. The USSR.

The gas price controls in the 70s caused a shortage of natural gas for heating because drilling went down to almost zero and many houses had oil heating in 1974 when oil prices went up from $2.50 to $12.00 per barrel overnight. This caused severe stress an those with oil heating since isnulation standards were very poor in those days.

Nixon finally ended the 40 cents per million BTU interstate price control and drilling soared. The US quickly developed much more gas, backing out heating oil in those areas that had pipeline and distribution access.

Canada tried to control oil prices in the 70s by setting an artificially lower than market price for internal oil while putting an export tax on oil exported to the US to bring it up to world price. It caused great dislocation in the industry and local companies went overseas where their drilling effiorts would yield more returns.

Japan wisely adjusted itself to world oil and gas prices in the 70s and developed a strong lead in energy conservation and fuel efficient car design.

Gasoline price controls practiced by dictators in Iran, Venezuela, Nigeria, Indonesia,Saudi Arabia and other places have caused numerous problems, and discouraged conservation efforts.

Thanks for a thoughtful post, Docnick. I agree that price controls will not have a desirable effect in the long run. If after instituting them they are ever rescinded, the price will likely change substantially because no one can efficiently determine what the price ought to be.

Doc…"Unlike natural gas, there is no glut of oil worldwide, and the $120 international price of oil dictates what you pay for gasoline, not an excess refining capacity in the USA."
NO IT DOES NOT, short term. It’s market pressures.

There is no glut of natural gas world wide, and that is what will ultimately determine nat gas prices as a transportation fuel along with tax incentives in any country as it is now for gasoline.

In the US 7/12 2008 gas average was 4.12
11/29 2008 1.69
3/22 2008 3.87

The price of oil per barrel did not change by 50% during that time. Please remember there IS a manufactured glut of gasoline and still, the price goes up. Gas to be sold to the highest bidder abroad on the world market, driving up prices here, as world price per gallon of gas moves in harmony but lags behind changes in oil prices REGULATED by OPEC, the biggest producer of EASY access oil.

But, my contention is still that this so called GLUT of natural gas will not suddenly make all natural gas users, if and when they ever come on line, cut costs dramatically. The so called plan is to make long haul users of nat. gas to relieve the price of diesel, which affects the cost of everything. That is a good economic strategy. The only long term strategy for lowering personal transportation costs is the ultimate flex fuel vehicles. EVs.

Kmccune “Well Dagosa the Military basically uses one high grade blend of Kerosene for everything(including the motor cycles which makes good sense(kinda like operating on Zulu time).The trouble with taxes they even hit the innocent in a round about way at times,thats why I like user fees…”

I hear you but what is your point ? Gas taxes ARE user fees that work in concert with the number of miles you use our roads.

Gas is available for export because of declining demand in the US, caused by economic slowdown, increased ethanol use, and higher-mpg cars being bought. Demand is down 550,000 bbls/day, exports are at about 500,000 bbls/day, so exports are not straining US gasoline supplies.

Can you imagine any other industry that is a employment engine, exporting millions of dollars, that folks want to GUT? So if we have a surplus in farming, we should prohibit exports in order to drive prices down? Or we should prohibit BMW from exporting cars from its South Carolina plant? REALLY?

And you say the price of oild did not change 50%. You’re right, it dropped MORE than that, $140/bbl -> $40/bbl, then up 65% to $66/bbl by June 2009. So it varied MORE than the gas price.

“you’re right, it dropped more…” Texases…exactly, thanks for making my point…and what happened during that time ? Declining demand was brought about by a recession. It had nothing to do with extraction costs or refining costs as was the original contention. Even at 1.69. oil companies profited handsomely. The price per barrel it could be argued FOLLOWED the demand and local prices of gas. It was world market pressures. NOW, energy producers can control our economic future. The nigher costs of energy predicated both our recessions and lower costs our recoveries. It followed the recession going down only.

Only, self determination and local energy production will have a substantial effect on energy costs. That is the only thing that can insulate us from large companies, controlling major sources or energy world wide…that includes natural gas. The same BS concerning nuclear power plants alone…a savior ? Hardly. Natural gas alone ? Hardly. Local energy production is NOT supported the way it should be on the national level do to influence of whom ? Corporate influence on legislation.

Somehow, we manage to give subsidies to oil and gas(?) companies, but no rebates we should for insulation. Just a few grand for a ridiculous Volt…that tells who controls govt, regulations.

“The price per barrel it could be argued FOLLOWED the demand and local prices of gas.”

Let’s just look at that for a minute.

Texases, Doc…final energy prices are as much about public policy ( I say jokingly) as the cost of production which stays about the same no matter where it is produced. Taxes and subsidies have much more to do with prices from highs of 8 to 9 dollars in countries where subsidies are low and taxes are high, to 3.89 (?) here where subsidies are higher and taxes lower.
When natural gas goes on line as a major contributor to transportation, it’s price will be controlled the same. User fees (taxes)and subsidized production will be discussed and legislated to produce the price structure of natural gas. Which I believe will have significant corporate influence.
So, this glut of natural gas here and it’s price are not as related as I keep hearing and the utopia of “free” ( we know itz’s not really free) energy from our natural gas outlets from our homes on a large scale without public policy and tax intervention will not happen. Just having a lot of it, doesn’t make it cheap.
Energy policies are in part, controlled by corporate donations into our political system which allow this as well.

I wonder what things will be like in a hundred or so years when we run out of dinosaur fuel? I will not see it, but ….

Good question, JEM, but that point keeps getting pushed further and further out. Five years ago we were all worried about ‘peak oil’, me included. Then the horizontal well/fracking technology (that has the US flooded with natural gas) started being applied to oil reservoirs, and now we’re seeing large increases in light, sweet crude production in the US where declining production has been the rule ever since I got in the business 30+ years ago. Limitless? No, that time will come, but when? I don’t know.

All of this spirited banter just proves out one of my assumptions about second choice or alternative fuels for the masses.

No one can make the indutry stick to one overall choice so the result is zero infrastucture to make one available to all.
CNG
LPG
butane
propane
methenol
ethenol
bio-deisel
cow chips

C’mon now , if every one is so dang concerned about another useable fuel source get off your duffs and decide on one and put the infrastructure in place.
Only then will people buy it and use it.

Why do you thing gasoline is the IT fuel ?
Because it’s every where, the industry builds for its use and the supply infrastructure is in place.

The easier it is to use , access, maintain, and retain a future in , the more people will.

‘‘Build it and they will come.’’

I’ll pass on the cow chips. And have you driven by and smelled their production facilities lately???

But aren’t ‘‘they’’ complaining that cows and other livestock are a major source of environmental methane ?

Put a cow on a trailer behind your adapted truck and away you go.

Wind power is starting to come into play, and lord knows we have plenty of that here in SD! But, again you can’t build a wind farm where there are no power lines to carry electricity from it. And when companies see they are going to have to build miles and miles of power lines here just to get electricity from point a to point b, they start to look elsewhere. Lack of infrastructure is a problem as Ken said. Seems like a good place to put people to work!

Speaking of infrastructure, on the non-automotive front…
I think the entire construction industry should come to a screaching halt…change the way every roof is built from this point forward…and never build another roof, industrial or residential, without solar.

Hot water exchangers or photo-voltaic electric, every roof ever built should have solar on top.

Solar is good in certain locations, but it can be a VERY high cost energy source. I pay 8-9 cents/kw-hr. In Spain thay had to subsidize solar at 60 cents/kw-hr.

Just need to be VERY smart on how and where we implement solar.

@kengreen - I agree with the concept. I’m looking at solar panels…and maybe if the price drops I’ll buy some. My house is in the “perfect” location for them. But my neighbors who live across the street they would be wasting their time (surrounded by trees and facing wrong direction).

The problem with the solutions from the big corporations is…they all seem to be centered around some type of power distribution system. NOT individual homes creating their own power for their own private consumption. There’s very little money in selling solar panels…but a lot of money in selling you power that was produced using solar panels.

As it is now yes,
But wouldn’t the existance of mass production and use bring the prices in line ?
Just wonderin’ as it seems to me it would.

( remember the $500.00 VCRs that are now 69.99 ? )