Did not your mommy teach you not to lie?
As I said in an earlier post on this thread, the issue with the CVT is a defective solenoid in the valve body. If that fails, the valve body has to be replaced, not the whole transmission. If that solenoid fails after the extended warranty, you can ask for a good faith replacement from Subaru, but you must ask the CSR that is listed in your owners manual, not the dealer.
The dealer may assist you in contacting the CSR at Subaru, but they cannot authorize the good faith repair. Since this is a known issue and you are what they call an outlier, that is someone who does not fit the normal pattern of driving that the extended warranty was intended for, you have a good chance of being approved.
Since 2012, the CVT has proven to be pretty reliable. Some have had early failures due to factory defects, but then so have all other types of transmissions.
There are degrees of lying, it’s not black and white, at least in my personal value system. For example: After Subaru denied they had an oil consumption problem a class action suit got them to replace the rings if the engine used a quart of oil or more in 1,000 miles. Say you check your oil after 1,000 miles and it’s down 15 oz. What do you do? You can be 100% honest and pay thousands of dollars to rebuild your engine or you could drain an ounce of oil and have Subaru pay for it. Wouldn’t it be easy to rationalize the decision to cheat based on the fact that it was Subaru’s screw up, not yours, and Subaru has millions or billions of dollars to rebuild your engine and you don’t?
Hi Keith.
Thanks for your unemotional informative response.
It takes the emotional “charge” out of the topic and puts some feet on the ground.
And gives me some comfort…
Nice to hear that sometimes Subaru will do a good faith out of warrenty repair.
(I will say that when my 2001 Forester started leaking at the head gasket at only 80,000 miles, despite TLC maintenance including their recommended cooling system conditioner and TLC driving, the dealer service department said, “tough luck… you’re outside the 10 year time limit.” I guess I should have tried contacting the CSR about a good faith adjustment… but the service manager didn’t even mention that possibility.)
You wrote in part…
“… If that fails, the valve body has to be replaced, not the whole transmission…”
That raises two question: The verbal descriptions of the failures here and elsewhere sure SOUNDED like catastrophic failures …as if shrapnel were flying all around. Was that just purple prose? Or?
There are reports, here and elsewhere, that sure sound like the owner had the whole tranny replaced (in some cases covered by Subaru, others out-of-pocket, prices ranging from $7200 to about $9500.
That doesn’t sound like valve body replacement.
Any ballpark idea what a valve body replacement should cost if owner has to cover it?
Alex
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Hi Greendragon.
Yeah, she did tell me that. And it’s not my first choice.
However, technically it would be not lying to come in and say “I’m experiencing some symptoms of tranny problems, and BTW, I’m smelling what could be overheated tranny fluid.”
Actually IMO less lying than what Subaru corporate has done on occasions:
Maybe Subaru’s executives Mom’s teach them not to lie?
I’d say at some level they have to know it’s a lie to tell an owner whose brand new car is going though even half a quart of oil in 1000 miles when in no way involved in sever service conditions “that is ‘normal’ and acceptable.” (That happened to a friend with their new 2013 Forester, right out of the gate all during their first 20,000 miles.).
That’s 3.5 quarts of oil consumption between recommended oil change intervals. “Normal” for a new modern engine under non-sever driving is actually zero added oil or at most half a quart between oil changes. (That’s was my experience on my 2001 Forester was and is with my 2015, and my 2004 Corolla, etc.)
Would you really believe it was normal to have to add 3.5 quarts between oil changes on your new Subaru? Would you really believe than most of the mechanics and engineers at Subaru would believe it was “normal” if that was their new Subaru? Yet that’s the narrative that Subaru corporate headquarters consciously chose to stick with.
Aside from the questionable ethics, IMO business-wise it would have been a far more profitable decision to come clean up front, say “we’ve got a problem, here’s how it happened, and we’re not going to leave it in our customers’ laps even if it’s going to be expensive to make it right.”
Yeah… two wrongs don’t make a right… but sometime… particularly when corporate is arguably calculatedly deliberately lying to save themselves cash, I couldn’t get too moralistically down on a new car buyer caught in Subaru’s denial stance and facing a multi-thousand dollar out of pocket repair from something clearly resulting from a design or manufacturing flaw if they did what I suggested.
And I bet many of the mechanics and engineers at Subaru would privately agree with me.
Alex
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Your experience is why so many people would benefit from following Car Talk. Car owners assume that their dealer is a trusted source of information about their car. Were it not for Car Talk, most owners wouldn’t know the in’s and out’s of how the service department
works, that they make their money on customer-paid work and not on warranty work. So a service manager isn’t going to refer you to the CSR or tell you that absent a positive decision by the CSR you can contact corporate directly.
Just yesterday I talked to the service manager at my dealer and said we were bringing in our Outback under warranty to fix a coolant leak. She asked if we could see it leaking on the ground and when I said no but we smell it from the grill she said that’s normal.
If she’s typical of Subaru service managers then God help us all. Whether she’s deliberately lying or woefully ignorant, either way the average Subaru owner is screwed.
I agree with you. In a perfect world a car manufacturer would accept the cost of their mistakes and an owner wouldn’t have to lie to avoid spending thousands of dollars out of pocket. Since they don’t I look at it this way: We’re all playing a game with
the manufacturer when we buy their car - they’re trying to get out of paying and we’re trying to get them to pay. They set the rules, not us. So if I drain an extra ounce of oil before I take it in I’m playing the game according to their rules.
Hi Lee.
You wrote …
"Your experience is why so many people would benefit from following Car Talk. "
The fact that someone even knows of Cartalk and visits it already suggests they’re the one’s less likely to get, unintentionally or otherwise, improperly advised and treated by the dealer or manufacturer.
It’s the ones who wouldn’t even know of cartalk or other credible car owner communities who are most vulnerable.
“… a service manager isn’t going to refer you to the CSR or tell you that absent a positive decision by the CSR you can contact corporate directly…they make their money on customer-paid work and not on warranty work…”
Keith… I was under the impression that a service department makes just as much, or nearly as much, doing work or supplying parts under warranty than if paid by the customer… and that they do have some incentive to try to get my job paid under warranty; because, say I need a CV joint replaced, if it’s not going to be under warranty I’m not going to let the expensive dealer service department do it…I’ll go to the local mechanic with a good reputation who will do it likely for 40% less cost.
Are you sure they get paid less for the job under warranty? When my battery failed their test just within my 36 month coverage they seemed perfectly at ease telling me it’s covered under warranty and installed it cost zero.
You wrote …
“Just yesterday I talked to the service manager at my dealer and said we were bringing in our Outback under warranty to fix a coolant leak. She asked if we could see it leaking on the ground and when I said no but we smell it from the grill she said that’s normal.
If she’s typical of Subaru service managers then God help us all…”
I have to say I have spoken to some knowledgeable service managers at Subaru.
I agree it’s shocking that any service manager or anyone who has even a trace of auto knowledge to say coolant smell off engine anywhere is “normal” (unless you recently did a change and spilled some.)
Did you persist and politely or any other way educate her and persist to get it checked under warranty? In a case like that , as much as I’d hate to cost anyone their job, if I was unable to get her to wake up, I might feel obligated to discuss this with the dealership owner and/or post a review on the web reporting the specifics of why this service department isn’t exactly 5 star.
Well you are wrong . Warranty work does not pay at the same rate .
Frankly I don’t know why temp3 and Lee T just don’t trade their vehicles and find something that won’t drive them crazy.
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To be clear, I’m not sure how I implied that the service department is paid the same by Subaru for warranty work as you would pay out of pocket. Generally that is not true.
Dealers are independent businesses. They are not owned by the manufacturer. Some will treat you better than others. Now manufacturers have some sway over the dealers because often the vehicles on the lot are on consignment. That means that the manufacturer still owns the vehicles. The manufacturer can exercise control over how many and what type of vehicle the dealer is allowed to have.
The dealer is also under contract with the manufacturer to uphold certain standards and to perform certain services. Some dealers may try to push the code of conduct or other standards to see what they can get away with. It appears that the Japanese manufacturers are much more stringent in enforcing their standards than other manufacturers.
Parts for repairs that you pay for have an MSRP just like the vehicle. It is not uncommon for dealers to charge well above that MSRP. I can remember when Honda first started using their own ATF, a quart of the Honda brand ATF had an MSRP of around $8. This is what my local dealer charged me for it, but there were many complaints here about Honda dealer charging up to $25 qt.
Even within a dealership that has several service advisors, the help and advice you get can vary by quite a bit, so if you don’t get what you want from one, try another. But in the end, you have your owners manual and it has the CSR number somewhere in it.
I do not know what the valve body cost. I keep all my receipts but for some reason I did not get a receipt for any of the warranty work done on my Subaru. I did see them but I don’t know what happened to them. It seemed like the cost was somewhere in the $3-400 range. Not nearly as much as the $1500 Subaru paid when I went through some water on the road. The water was about 3" deep but that was enough to wipe out the vapor recovery system.
Not to start you worrying about water on the road, it mostly affects Legacy’s because they are so close to the ground. It also affects Outbacks but the water needs to be much deeper. The Outback and Legacy share the same platform. The Forrester is a different platform and I have not heard of it having this issue.
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Hi Volvo.
You wrote —
“Frankly I don’t know why temp3 and Lee T just don’t trade their vehicles and find something that won’t drive them crazy.”
Good and reasonable question. Several reasons:
I like many things about my 2015 Forester.
Statistically only a small number of owners are going to come out on the wrong end of the CVT potential issues. So I’m betting with the odds. Anyway, I’m covered by warranty for 6 more years, so I have 6 years left to decide if your trade it in idea is a good one.
My wife LOVES our 2015 Forester. She’d be pretty unhappy if we bailed out of it because of something that “might” happen.
We purchased it new off the dealer lot. Got a decent price. Like most cars they take a huge depreciation just driving it off the dealer lot… and the greatest chunk of depreciation is in the first two years of aging. Our Forester is truly in new condition with only 15,000 miles but I’d take that huge depreciation if I traded in or sold it just three years out of the gate.
Per Kelly Blue Book on a trade in I’d lose at LEAST $5000 of my original investment, possibly as much as $7500. About as much as a worst case CVT failure down the line when out of warranty would cost me. But unlike the low probability CVT nasty hit, trading it in would be a definite loss, not a “maybe someday.”
Finally, if I replaced it with another new car, there’s no absolute guarantee that that car might not have some reliability issues or that its dealer or maker would be more customer friendly.
Does that answer your question?
Thank you for some very good information here.
One thing I would add: Having worked in many dealerships I learned that customers need to know that service writers aren’t paid much and dealers get what they pay for. They usually have minimal mechanical knowledge, sometimes none, and are paid to write service orders when you drive up. They’re supposed to write down what it is you want done and if you have a problem they’re supposed to write down the symptoms, not the diagnosis. Many customers assume service writers are knowledgeable and ask their advice and many service writers happily oblige with incorrect answers. I asked a service writer at my dealer why Subaru’s oil change interval is 5K when Toyota’s is 10K and she said because if Subaru’s was 10K customers would come in for an oil change with a dry crankcase.
If you want advice ask the service manager. Usually but not always they were a great mechanic who got promoted.
What’s with the large print . . . ?!
My 2014 Outback had a recommended oil change at 7500 miles. 2015 models were recommended at 6000 miles I believe. I maintained 5000 miles intervals. The engine didn’t leak but it did burn the oil somehow. I was paranoid about oil loss after getting a low pressure alarm as I was tooling down a local freeway. I gather that 7500 miles intervals did leave no oil on the dipstick. As I read about the dubious lifetime of the CVT I decided to abandon my Outback for a Chevy Impala. It has a real transmission and no oil loss as of yet , not to mention plenty of get up and go.
Are you not checking your oil between changes??? You HAVE to do that!
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You’re absolutely right. Every driver should do that. To a point.
Get a new car, monitor the oil level every 1K miles, see how much if any oil consumption there is.
The same time we bought a new Outback we bought a new Tacoma with the V6 engine. I checked the oil every 1K miles for the first 10K miles which is Toyota’s oil change interval. The oil was still on the full mark at the first oil change so now I don’t
check it.
Why does Toyota have a 10K interval and Subaru have a 6K interval? Why does the Toyota use no oil and the Subaru has to be checked every 1K miles?
Questions for those more knowledgeable than me.
Because that what the manufacture has determined to be best for their engines .
And not checking oil level on a regular basis just because the first few did not need oil is foolish.
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Just me but I will never buy a car with a CVT in it . I’ll take a conventional 6 or 8 speed tranny with 120000 mile change intervals ,some are maintence free now with the improved fluids. I have driven CVTs and I just don’t like them .
No offense, but you’ve bought into the “life time fluid” myth . . . hook, line and sinker
If you buy a car with cvt and service it as per severe service intervals . . . probably every 25K or 30K . . . chances are the car will be fine for as long as you own it. Now if you’re planning on keeping it for 500K, no guarantees. But even a conventional automatic would probably need an overhaul before you reached 500K
And by avoiding all cars with cvt, you’re actually eliminating some pretty good vehicles
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I agree. If a 6 speed auto trans is good then an 8 speed is better and a 10 speed is the best. A CVT goes one better. They were developed to maximize mileage. Some people don’t like the way they feel but some manufacturers are adding artificial shift points to CVTs so they feel like conventional automatics. For me if I really didn’t like how a CVT feels I would try to buy a car with a stick shift. But good luck with that, only a small percentage of the American buying public elect a stick shift so each year they get harder to find.