I have a friend who has a late model Astro Van. I’m not sure of the year/milage/engine, but it may not matter for this discussion.
He took it up to Firestone for an oil change (had a coupon), and they called him in to tell him that he had several oil leaks, and that his radiator was leaking. They also told him that when they drained the oil it was 2-3quarts low. And then quoted him and exorbitant amount of money to fix it all.
He knows I’m unemployed and would rather have me do the work (I’m happy to oblige). He just doesn’t want to spend the money to fix it if during the past couple of months of his wife and daughter driving it with less than “full” oil may have trashed the engine.
My question is:
Other than a compression test, what diagnostics can be done to determine the heath of this engine. He will split the cost of any necessary tool purchases with me… I know nice guy right?
Aquire an oil pressure test gauge. Substitute the gauge for the oil pressure sending unit. Start the engine and let it idle while watching the gauge. If the oil pressure drops below 5 PSI as the oil heats up, the engine is worn out.
Tester
Thank you for your input.
And I thought I was being too generous by saying 7 psi. Seven is what GM says is OK, hot at idle. One other test, pull the oil fill cap and use your nose to give the engines “innards” a sniff. If it smells like some guys are doing a roofing job in there (like asphalt) it is a gonner.
If the engine runs quietly and the oil pressure is adequate it might be advisable to ignore the high drama of the shop wanting to cash in on the ignorance of the owner. But certainly, the oil level and condition may have caused damage and if not already could in the future if ignored.
What were the suggested repairs? How many quarts does the van hold? Any signs of an oil leak or do you know where the oil went? If the car runs, you can run the current oil for a normal interval (watching the oil level) and then send a sample of your oil to a lab to analysis (I use Blackstone: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/). That could tell you if there is severe wear going on inside the engine.
I recommended blackstone to him. Maybe it would be best to handle the coolant leak and go from there.
I don’t know at the moment what they suggested. I know they degreased the engine and put in oil-glo. My assumption (until further notice) was they just wanted to fix all the leaks. I’ll be sure to post back when I see the estimate.
I take everything from Firestone with a grain of salt…They are about on par with Jiffy Lube.
Get a second opinion at an independent shop with a good rep.
Address the radiator leak.
Have your friend monitor the oil consumption and leakage. Adding a quart every 1000 miles is still cheaper than repairing a vehicle typically to stop the issues.
Firestone recommended $600 in work on my 2 yr old Subaru in for new tires, that just had a major service performed and was up to date. There business model is propose everything and hope the customer bites.
I’m in agreement about performing an oil pressure test but I do respectfully disagree that a pressure reading of even 10 PSI would be acceptable. Readings this low is usually a figure that comes out of a manual and many of these stastistics are flat wrong.
This would be especially true of any aftermarket manuals and even factory manuals are frequently wrong.
Examples. A manual for my oldest son’s Camaro states 6 PSI at elevated RPMs. This is dead wrong and his car right now at over 250k miles still carries 25 PSI and that’s at idle speeds with 60 PSI at elevated RPMS.
More than one manual also specifies compression readings that are bunk. It will state that a 35% difference in readings is acceptable, that 120 PSI on a cylinder is fine, etc.
All of that is utter garbage. A reading of 120 PSI is fine on an old VW air-cooled engine but those are pretty much history as far as the norm.
The rule of thumb on compression is 20 X the compression ratio at sea level. Some can be deducted for altitude, barometric pressure, engine wear, etc.
I always get suspicious of these “coupon” oil changes whereupon the shop calls the owner and tells them there’s “several oil leaks, your radiator is leaking, and your oil was 2-3 quarts low”. I always suspect that teh coupon was a “come on” and wonder how much of the rest is bunko.
Do a pressure test of the cooling system. See if there really is a leak. Don’t be surprised if you don’t find one.
Do the compression test. That’ll give you an idea of the condition of the engine. Don’t be surprised if it comes out fine.
While it’s not a good idea to run an engine with a low oil level, as long as the level did not drop below the pickup acreen the internals would not have been starved of lubricant and may be just fine. The engine would not have been trashed. Assuming your friend has never had the oil pressure warning light illuminate, this will probably be the case. And minor gasket leaks on well worn engines are normal and generally harmless as long as the oil is not allowed to get low below the level of the pickup in the oil pan.
I haev a sneaking suspicion that the engine will turn out to be fine…and the Firestone ahop is having trouble generating enough revenue. Post back with the results of the tests.
I’d be a little cautious in going by what Firestone said was wrong. They can find all kinds of things wrong that don’t need to be fixed.
My one experience with them was in Florida. Our son drove down to meet us there and developed a severe ignition miss. We had to get it fixed before he headed back to Minnesota with it and ended up at a Firestone after some other shops were booked solid. While I was waiting, a lady returned a car that had just had $800 of brake work done and still had a problem. This was some 10-15 years ago so they had to have just recommended replacing every brake part and she bought.
When my turn came, I can’t really complain because they did diagnose a bad coil but then went on to call for plugs, wires, etc. and I think their estimate was upwards of $600 on a $1500 car. I told them to just put the coil on which still cost $300 but corrected the problem. We did stop at an auto parts store for the plugs and wires etc. and did that ourselves too just in case. But they were just pretty high pressure to add on all of the possible parts that should be replaced and saying that they couldn’t guarantee the work without them. That’s just their game and woe to people that have no idea about car repairs.
what is your objection to performing a compression test?
a gauge is not that expensive, is a great tool to have in your kit, and no other tool will tell you as much about an engine in less time.
My objection to expending the resources towards a compression test is it will not tell you what you need to know, the status of the crankshaft (in paticular the rod) bearings. It is the bearings that are going to be hurting here.
Listening to the engine run at a high idle speed after warmup and during a driveby and knowing the oil consumption rate is what I would do. If it sounds like rubbish and burns two quarts per thousand, then it may need work. If it runs well, sounds good and burns little oil, it can live for a while. A quart per thousand which some say is normal and ignored for 2000 miles will get you to two quarts low.
Update:
I still haven’t seen the vehicle, but I got a call from the owners son saying is was shooting out a ton of white smoke while his sister was trying to get it un-stuck from the snow. I personally think it was just exhaust, but he thought it was worse than that. I hope to take a look at it tomorrow and I will check out the oil. So I guess Firestone put in OilGlo, so I’m not sure yet what the oil will look like. I’ll post back when I have more info. Thank you all for the input.
White smoke is water vapor, normal byproduct of combustion. Snow you say? Probably cold out, yes? Water vapor easier to see.
Yup, exactly my thoughts.
It is just me, or did the OP post 2 questions that any competent mechanic ought to know?
That makes me wonder about the OP’s ability to fix the problems of his friend’s vehicle. Might lose a friend in the bargain.