‘Oddly, I am a 45 year old, somewhat conservative type guy, hardly the stereotypical Mac user.’
I’m 76 and fiscally conservative and the only computers I’ve ever owned have been Macs .
I love the clean, conservative, upright, German styling of the Passat. IMHO, too many cars these days try too hard to look all swoopy and sporty-futuristic. But, for me reliability and good value trumps style, so I wouldn’t actually buy a VW. But I do appreciate their clean design.
You’ve asked this question before, and my answer was that German built Passats in the 80s and 90s had frequent timing belt failures, which in retrospect appear to have been the result of a poorly designed tensioner. The unwillingness to admit there was a problem by the local dealers here and the very slow response by the factory turned many off VWs of any kind. Then the Mexican built ones with their poor plastic which could not handle -40 weather further destroyed any reputation VW might have had.
In the last year we have seen 4 new Kia dealerships, 3 new Hyundai dealerships, one new Toyota dealership just down the road, expanded Mercedes and BMW dealerships, etc. The VW dealers are still at the low markeshare they were at 15 years ago. We even have a Bently/Lamborgini dealership.
As mentioned, VW wants to become the world’s largest car company and the decontenting of the Jetta has even turnmed off Consumer Reports. They may succeed in third world countries where buyers are less critical about quality and handling.
Where did anyone ever get the idea that others’ criteria for buying a car was the same as theirs? People buy Volkswagons because they like them. There must be 1000 possible reasons why they like them, but what’s it matter?
Docnick, where do you live? I’ve been searching high and low for a Bentley/Lamborghini dealer;-)
Latest Car and Driver: Passat best sedan, over Accord, Camry, Sonata, Optima, etc. I liked my GTI, no real problems for 13 years. They did go through some rough times '95-'05, coils, etc. But they seem to be doing better, and they have that combination of good handling and decent ride that few others seem to match for the price.
Docknick, I have brought this up before but what I’ve always wanted to see is proof positive that there’s a legitimate problem and not something based on a subjective opinion or internet carping. Pushing aside the inferior quality timing belt claim for a moment I will say.
Back in the 80s I was working for VW and never saw any problem at all with belts or tensioners.
Moving on a bit, I’m not a web surfer but at times I do a little reading about car problems to try and determine what’s really going on with a complaint. The word to describe my feelings on what I read is very hard to come up with but “bemusement” keeps cropping up.
A timing belt or tensioner that fails at 30-40k miles or 3 or 4 years of age obviously had a problem. However, the complaints I read do not reflect those numbers. Some examples off the top of my head:
Belt failed at 73k miles and car owner says it failed too soon. The belt was 10 years old.
Belt replaced at 90k miles but NOT the tensioners. Tensioner failed at 130k miles and car owner blames the belt and car.
Customer advised warranty does not pay for timing belt replacement at 90k miles. Customer thinks the dealer “is lying” by saying the belt is a maintenance item and refuses to replace it. Customer keeps driving until the belt snaps and then blames VW.
Car owner has 80k miles on their VW when the belt breaks and said owner says it broke too soon. The car was 12 years old.
I do personally remember one failure that I had to repair and based on what I was told by the car owner (who did the belt job himself) it appeared that after replacing the belt he tightened it much tighter than necessary and chose to ignore the whining noise. He ignored it right up to the second it broke.
I could dredge and post these all night but in my humble opinion I fail to see that one iota of the mentioned failures are due to a faulty belt or tensioner. What I do see is neglect and this is exacerbated in part by sheer mechanical ignorance.
If you think any of those are legitimate failures then feel free to point them out.
No doubt there have been a few legit premature failures but it’s not a common problem. On the other hand, some good friends of mine had a belt snap on their Honda Civic at 4 years of age and 50 something thousand miles. I would consider that one premature but I’m certainly not going to claim that Honda makes inferior belts and tensioners.
“For every complex question, there is a simple answer which is wrong.” --R. Feynman
Really, this question is too complicated and vague to be answered simply, and as with all such questions (especially political ones), I’d be v-e-r-y skeptical about anyone who says they know for sure. Here are some ideas, and I have owned a sample size n=2 of them (both were dependable and good cars for their time). I’m also fond of statistics and critical thinking.
First, no one buys a car based solely on good scientific, rational analysis – largely because this is almost impossible. Most people buy the car for several interrelated reasons, including a quick test drive and a peek at their bank balance. Many other reasons are emotional – and this is largely based on advertising and anecdotal evidence from friends and neighbors who use the confirmation bias – “I made the choice and therefore it must be the right one (unless, perhaps, they bought from GM).” VW has an image, like you said, as the Mac of cars – kind of quirky, cheery, well-made and designed, and acceptably unconventional (coincidentally both the Mac and the VW were arguably designed by authoritarian, stubborn, opinionated and somewhat innovative men – Steve J and Ferdinand P). So is a VW Golf actually a better driving car than a Mazda or even a Honda? Well, the people who buy them like to convince themselves it is. Will you be able to check this out on a five-minute test drive? Probably not. But the ads and some journalists of questionable abilities will reinforce your belief if you decide to say “yes,” and few cars handle very poorly today anyway.
Second, VW has a reputation for quality materials, and if you look at the interior and take a brief drive, your first impressions show a tangible element of truth – never mind that the precision-looking dashboard will start to fade after a couple of years, or that the unnecessarily complex German engineered fahrfegneugen-control arm assembly (which gives such a quick response when you turn the steering wheel) will cost you plenty when it wears out. People are wiling to pay, and accept, a bit more for a car that seems to make them feel good.
So … part of the answer to your question would surely include image and first-impressions. VW does quite well here, and they aren’t bad cars, based on my ownership sample size n = 2.
Why would anyone buy a volkswagon ?
– I wouldn’t –
and many other brands which have zero dealer, and little indy support in this small town.
( nearest dealer…140 miles one way )
There is zero need to go off on a tangent looking for something that is already well represented by good brands with strong local support.
And , business wise, I have zero desire to spend any money out of town to people whom I’ll never see here in my business.
I always tell my customers that I don’t care if they buy a Ford from my place or have it serviced here.
All I ask…
All I insist, is they buy and service their Chevy, Nissan, GMC, Toyota, Buick, or Caddy right here IN the town they live and work in.
Here is a great reason to buy a VW–it fits. I had a classmate when I was in college in the early 1960s. This classmate was from a very wealthy family, but was really a swell person. He had two problems: 1) he had a congenital spine problem which gave him terrible back problems and 2) he was rather forgetful. He took the bus home one weekend and his parents sent him back with one car from their fleet–a new Pontiac Grand Prix. A couple of weeks later, he decided to go home for another weekend and forgot that he had a car on campus, so he took the bus. When he returned, he was driving another new car, so he had two cars on campus. The next weekend, he and his room mate drove both cars back home and his parents brought him and his room mate back to campus. He was given instructions and the money to buy any car he wanted. He bought a VW Beetle–he said it was the most comfortable car with his back problems that he could drive and that included Cadillacs and Lincolns.
I bought a Chevrolet Uplander minivan in 2006. I found it fit my needs at the time better than the other minivans on the market. I know that Consumer Reports didn’t give it a high rating, nor did the previous model Uplander have a good repair record. I had no major problems with the Uplander. My son bought the Uplander from me and he has had no problems. I look at it like this: if a car fits my needs or desires, that is what I will buy. I am going to drive the car, not Consumer Reports. I am the one who will pay for the repairs on the car. If I found that I was comfortable in a VW product and liked the way it drove, I would buy one.
What does seem strange to me is that I live in a college town. The VW dealer folded and there aren’t many VWs on campus. Forty years ago, I would have rather had this VW franchise than a license to steal gold from Fort Knox.
Quote from satisficer: “VW has an image, like you said, as the Mac of cars – kind of quirky, cheery, well-made and designed, and acceptably unconventional (coincidentally both the Mac and the VW were arguably designed by authoritarian, stubborn, opinionated and somewhat innovative men – Steve J and Ferdinand P).” Unquote.
If you would Google “Josef Ganz Wiki” You will find a picture of his Standard Superior 1934 which preceded the VW Beetle by a year or two. It is possible that Ferdinand Porsche redesigned, rather than designed the first VW. The reason given was that Hitler would not have tolerated credit given for the first VW to a Jewish person.
The one thing I do have a problem with is the recommendation by VW that belts are good to go for X years or X number of miles and quite often that’s really taking a gamble on an interference fit engine. My personal opinion is that 6 years/60k miles is the limit and things like climate does play a part in belt longevity. Extremes of heat and cold are not good on rubber and a timing belt is no different than a set of tires, accessory belts, or whatnot when it comes to dry rot as not all rubber deteriorates at the same rate.
There was a class action suit against VW over belt failures but I don’t read too much into class actions. That just means a law firm with a complainer is going after someone with deep pockets. I’ve also read some of the complaints from people who wanted to join in and read those with the same amount of bemusement as the non-suit complaints.
I don’t know about other states but trolling lawyers are a 24/7 thing in the print and video media here.
An example would be the guy who did his own belt inspection, proclaimed it good, and then blamed VW when it broke a few thousand miles later. Where do I sign up for the cash was his attitude.
That misguided recommendation by VW about belt change intervals is also not proprietary from VW. Other car makers make the same erroneous recommendation along with a number of other equally misguided points including lifetime transmission fluid, oil change intervals, valve lash inspections, etc, etc.
The friends of mine whose Honda suffered a belt failure at 4 years of age were disgruntled enough that after having to spend serious money to fix it they decided to get rid of the car soon after. Normally I would have told them it was a fluke (which it was) and to keep the car but the shop where they had this done neglected to change the water pump and tensioners so they were at least looking at the possibility of a T-belt/cylinder head redeux if one of those parts decided to cash in.
This is why I’d buy one:
55 mpg (and not a hybrid)
2012 Motor Trend Car of the Year
Here is a long answer to the question of who would buy a VW and should not…
I am an owner of Acura, Honda, Toyota and Mazda and now a 2010 Jetta TDI. Bought it for the styling, handling and fuel economy (driving long distance at least a few times a year). Love the styling, handling and fuel economy. Not so sure about the unnecessarily complex design in some parts of the car. Bigger issues are quality of assembly (smaller) and design faults (others have reported repair costs over $5,000 to fix issues related to high pressure fuel pump and turbo inter-cooler ices up and hydro locks the engine).
My dilemma is that I love to drive this car but not sure when and where it will die and strand me (which did happen when I was travelling out-of-state due to inter-cooler issue). VW claims to have a smaller fix (remove a 1" wide plastic tube venting warmer air) which does not work for me (and others) and larger fix (replacing the inter-cooler with a modified kit) which VW provided in a spotty fashion to only selected owners without any explanation whatsoever.
I take very good care of all of the vehicles I’ve owned and never been stranded anywhere. The Jetta’s reliability and customer service run-around together however would prevent me to recommend the car to prospective buyers. On the positive side, the online VW enthusiast community is very helpful in helping each other to fix issues where appropriate. The dealership where I bought the car from is also nice to deal with, however, they can’t fix the issues until VW authorizes them. I am back to square one having to call at least once a month to report the issue and request the ETA of the inter-cooler which VW can’t provide. In hind sight, part of it is my fault ignoring my brother’s advice against the Jetta (he owned one). Perhaps I will try Hyundai after the Jetta is gone.
The VW Rabbit I had was fun to drive, was very quick off the red and handled well in turns. The hardware stuff was solid too, like the way the doors fit, the way they latched when you shut them, the body integrity was good. The problem I had with it was not that it would fail me occassionally, but the way it failed, It had this tendancy to leave me stranded. It didn’t give me a warning it was about to stop. It would just stop. It left me by the side of the freeway several times.
The other thing about the Rabbit at least was that very unusual things would fail. Like the valve stem seals. Or the fuel pump relay. Or the relay plate the fuel pump relay plugged into. Or the fuel distributor would clog up.
My current car, a 90’s Toyota Corolla, things stop working on it too from time to time, but it has always given me a warning. I’ve never been stranded. And I’ve never had a problem with weird stuff like the valve stem seals, the fuel pump relay, the relay plate, or anything with the fuel injection system.
But the Toyota isn’t as fun to drive and definitely doesn’t handle turns as precisely as the Rabbit. It’s a compromise.
A car is a car, get the one you like and get the best warranty, there are no guarantees after that. There are good and bad vehicles no matter the make, luck of the draw unless you want to go into cars made on Mondays and Fridays have more problems than others.
This is the only reason I can see to own a VW. In 1988 my friend Tony and I were stationed in Newport RI in the Navy and we both like to ski in the winter. I had a Datsun (Yes, Datsun 240 ZX, and Tony had a Firebird, while both cars were great for cruising neither was capable of a ski trip for the most obvious reason of T-Tops and lack of space to put a cooler. Oh yeah, and carrying ski equipment. One day I saw a woman selling a 1982 Beetle, her son had bought it and had attempted to do a Baja conversion to it, needless to say all he got right was the Iron Cross headlights, then he ran out of money for minor things, like for example the correct muffler. The son had gone off to college and the woman insisted on $500.00 for the car. Tony and I test drove it, and offered her $300.00 and the prospect of not seeing it in her driveway along side the Mercedes 450 SL that was parked there. At that point she looked at the car and gave it to us for $250.00 cash. We got the Baja muffler and the rest of the engine parts. We would drive that car up to New Hampshire and Vermont and go skiing, it never broke down, it never got stuck (Because honestly that was the best selling point for the Beetle) all winter long we would pass 4 wheel drives bogged down, and even one time passed a snowmobile that got stuck. The last trip the heater started working and the radio died. We sold the car for $400.00 in the spring, but for some reason I kept the ski rack, which 10 years later I finally gave away.
Oops, I meant Iron Cross Tail-Lights.
To add to my earlier post: People buy them because they are interesting cars and fun to drive. Sure, a Toyota or Honda will probably last longer, cost less to maintain, and break down less overall, but most Honda and Toyota vehicles are appliances. They are competent all around, and may move your body around, but not your soul. I have driven both, and we have some Toyota company cars, which I’ve driven. They are well-rounded, but utterly boring. I was happy with the competence of the Toyota I drove through a snowstorm last winter. But it was so dull. It did everything okay and nothing great. It accelerated tepidly, had decent brakes, and handled safely. The ride and seating was average. It did not inspire passion in any way. It was dull enough that I don’t even remember what color it was. Looking at the interior and exterior was about as exciting as watching people wander through the Wal-mart parking lot instead of the Miss Universe pageant. Cars like this are fine transportation for families and people who view a car as something to get them where they need to go efficiently, and nothing else. And that’s enough for a lot of people.
I wouldn’t want a car that’s unreliable or quirky just for the sake of it, but I do like a car that at least makes me smile a little when I drive it, and where my time in it isn’t just something to be endured until I reach my destination.
People buy cars like anything else. They like the style, feel, fit, color, dealer, price, etc. Or their parents always bought VW’s and still do. I had a 59 and that was my last but my DIL has had several. No big deal as long as they are under warranty and the dealer is close. Kids don’t always listen to their elders.