White Smoke Billowing From Exhaust After Repairs

Maintenance/Repairs
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42

Thanks for providing your perspective. Here is mine:

I understand that driving the vehicle, even for a short period of time, could cause the damage. I get that. Whether the damage to the vehicle was caused by manufacturer defect or user negligence is irrelevant. I didn’t purchase the vehicle from this dealer and its not under warranty. I could have taken it to any mechanic, but I took it to the dealership, figuring they would do the best work on it. Guess I was wrong.

Regardless of what caused the damage, its a mechanic’s job to diagnose a vehicle properly (I paid $140 for an accurate diagnosis), to present a cost estimate to fix the vehicle to working order, and then for the consumer to decide whether they want to pay for the repairs or not. If you agree to the repairs and the vehicle only runs properly for less than 24 hours after repairs are completed, then this is not sufficient, and I don’t know anyone who find this to be a sufficient amount of time for a vehicle to run after getting repair work done. Somewhat joking with the guy behind the counter, I asked, “This thing will be good for another 100,000 miles, right?” and he replied, “It should be.”

I understand that the cat needed to be replaced, the 02 sensors needed to replaced, and the coil needed to replaced. BUT, I only agreed to pay for these repairs under the impression that the vehicle would run properly after the repairs were completed. There was no mention from the service center of engine damage, or possible future engine damage that could be caused by the old catalytic converter. The vehicle may have ran when picked up, but the functionality lasted less than a mere 24 hours.

It is documented, on the Nissan paperwork, that pieces of the old catalytic converter were sucked into the engine, damaging cylinder 6. We specifically asked the man behind the counter if there was anything wrong with any of the cylinders, when we picked the vehicle up, before we paid for it ( the first time). He replied, “No.”

So the damage to the engine occurred, from these pieces of old catalytic converter, either before I brought it in (which they didn’t detect), or from the time the mechanic replaced the converter till I started it the next day.

If it occurred before I brought it to Nissan, then its their job, as mechanics, to identify the issue. That is why I pay them $140-- to provide an accurate diagnosis of the vehicle’s problems.

If pieces of the old catalytic converter got into the engine while replacing it with the new one (which is what I believe occurred, since this issue wasn’t detected prior to repairs), then that is error on the mechanic’s side. Either he didn’t do a good job replacing the converter, didn’t clean up the debris properly, whatever the case may be, I paid for the work to be done correctly and it most likely was not.

Regardless of how the vehicle got to the point that it needed repairs, the fact is that its the mechanic’s job to properly diagnose and fix the vehicle. That is what they geet paid to do. Fixing the vehicle to run properly does not mean just when you start it up on the lot when picking it up from the repair shop, it means that it should run properly for significant amount of time after investing in those repairs.

43

+1
On more than one occasion, Tom and Ray spoke about this Nissan-specific problem on their radio program. IIRC, the models that were most severely affected were Sentras.

44

Well, this is quite a piece of information added to the mix here…

I’m not sure $140 would cover the exhaust systems tear-down or the first round of shallow diagnostics only.
I suspect only the later.
Some of the inspection could not be done until you authorized the work and they were digging in into the engine intestines.

I would be quite unpleasantly surprised if the dealer did not inform you about the damage after tear-down was completed and they discovered cylinder 6 damage. Is it really at the time of delivery when you learned about it for the first time?

45

Blockquote I would be quite unpleasantly surprised if the dealer did not inform you about the damage after tear-down was completed and they discovered cylinder 6 damage. Is it really at the time of delivery when you learned about it for the first time?

Blockquote

I should have been more specific regarding the paperwork. The paperwork specifying the cylinder six damage caused by the catalytic converter pieces was from the 2nd time I brought it in to the service department, after they had already did the repairs.

To answer your question: in the midst of them repairing the vehicle, and even after they repaired the vehicle, they did not mention anything to me regarding engine damage or the possibility of future engine damage, that could be caused by the catalytic converter. They took my $3,000 and sent me on my way.

It wasn’t until I brought it back to them-- after the repairs that were already done and the white smoke problem occurred, and the flashing check engine light again-- that they documented that pieces of the catalytic converter were sucked into the engine, damaging cylinder 6. Ironically, for a problem that seems hard to diagnose without getting into “meat” of the engine, they were able to reach this conclusion within a few hours of having the vehicle the 2nd time around.

46

JMHO, but I think any engine damage was pre-existing from around the time cats got hot and the O2s melted. As I said, every engine I’ve seen that suffered this problem had serious issues up top; meaning cylinder walls, pistons, heads, exhaust manifolds, etc.

I don’t know if anyone has had occasion to deal with substrate out of a converter but it is not that hard. Even if the theory that a piece entered the combustion chamber is true the most it would do is possibly ding up and close the spark plug gap. Otherwise it would crumble under contact, get vaporized, and blown out.
Old substrate seems to have the consistency of week old toast and I can’t see any substrate damaging pistons or valves.

So exactly what damage do they say No. 6 has?

47

Then presumably the damage was not obvious at the time of the first visit.

I might assume that on the second visit it was enough damage to warrant the further investigation, where likely they removed the spark plugs and used bore-scope to check on the cylinders and found damage in cylinder #6.

I would assume that any traces of the substrate were gone by that point and they only observed the abrasions on the cylinder walls, giving their best guess on why these abrasions could appear there.
Also, if we assume that all other people posting about fine dust from the substrate getting on/past the rings are right, dealer could not see any substrate during inspection, it would be firmly sitting between the rings and working as a sandpaper - slowly but surely

It is frustrating, no doubt, but it will be quite an uphill battle to prove the ill intent or negligence on their side given that on the repair attempt number one they were able to identify the root cause of a failed coil and presumably worn plugs, moreover the engine was running fine right after the repair, validating the point that their diagnosis was correct. O2 sensors and catalysts were a collateral damage and should have been fixed regardless of any other repairs.
From this standpoint, they addressed the root cause and repaired the car to the working condition.

Their fault was about not applying the crystal ball to assess if the hidden damage was there or not… If they did that, they would give you a bill for 7-8 grand… and maybe some change as the rest of the car is not in pristine condition either, so some potential failure might have existed in every other subsystem… and if the expectation is that after repair every system on the 9 years old car gets back to new, touched or not… this logic may inflate the bill to foot even further…

They elected to cut the scope of repair to the root cause and collateral damage, and it looks like they were not very good in properly communicating this.

Given the history of recent abuse, they might have warned you that it might be not the end of the trouble, but they would not know for sure, and thus it will be hard to prove in the court of law that it is their fault and responsibility, moreover, the expense may far exceed the costs of swallowing this mistake and making the engine swap to the used engine.

From the practical standpoint, you have to define what plan A / plan B / plan C you might have here.

As I see:

  1. Go litigation route via small claims court
  2. Go full-blown legal
  3. Suck up the costs, install used engine on your dime
  4. Ask (nicely!) the shop to split the costs 50/50
  5. … some another route…

#2 is definite no-go, as the chances are slim, and lawyer fees will be yours to pay almost for sure, then you add the costs of #3 atop

#1 may be possible to try out, but the appeal may be filed and the outcome will become uncertain

3/4 seem to be the realistic ones… plus you’ve got a piece of wisdom not to do what was done

48

That is only one hour of labor, service writers and customers expect a technician to produce an estimate in one hour or less but that expectation leads to problems like yours.

To remove the spark plugs and inspect the cylinder walls for damage would take an additional 3 hours, without an indication of a problem (like smoke) there would be no reason to ask for 4 hours of inspection time. Would you have agreed to pay $560 for the inspection?

The catalyst particles can’t get sucked into the engine while the tech is replacing the parts, the engine must be running. The exhaust ports on the engine are much higher than the converter so there is no way to spill debris into the cylinders.

Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium particles are abrasive, a pinch of this dust trapped between the piston top and cylinder will destroy the cylinder wall.

49

Great point!
This engine is indeed a PIA to get to spark plugs, even on the frontal side.
Pretty much entire top needs to be disassembled.

50

Well, I sat down with the Service Department Director earlier today, and we were able to come to a deal. I will pay an additional $3,000 for a rebuilt engine. They will absorb the cost of labor and any other little costs involved in replacing an engine, and I will pay exactly $3,000-- no more, no less. The rebuilt engine will come with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty on it, and if anything goes wrong with the engine during this time frame, they will fix the issues free of charge.

I can say that I have learned quite a bit from owning this vehicle:

  1. I will never take out a loan for a used vehicle again. This is the first used vehicle I have ever financed; I’ve either paid cash for the used vehicles I’ve owned, or I’ve financed a brand new vehicle. When mechanical failures occurred on previous used cars I’ve owned, I could just sell the car, junk the car, or get the repairs, if it was reasonable to do so. In this situation, I’m stuck paying $11,000 regardless of what I decide to do with the vehicle. No loans on used vehicles for me, ever again.

  2. I will never purchase another Nissan again. I’ve had nothing but problems with this vehicle, from the very day I drove it off the lot. In exactly 4 days, I will have officially owned the vehicle for 1 full year, and I will have invested over $7,600 in repairs into it. What initially was a $12,000 purchase has turned into close to a $20,000 purchase. Hind sight is always 20/20, but I could have financed a brand new vehicle, with a warranty, for that kind of money.
    Additionally, I’ve owned vehicles with well over 200,000 miles on them, one had over 300,000 miles on it, and I have never had the type of mechanical issues that I am experiencing with this Nissan. I’ve owned a total of 9 vehicles over my lifetime, and I’ve never had to replace an ECM on a vehicle (which I had to with this one the very first day I owned it) and I’ve never had a catalytic converter go bad, or even start to go bad. While I’ve owned this vehicle I’ve gotten oil changes at their due times and I’ve maintained other fluids at their appropriate levels. At 128,000 miles, I’m not impressed at all by the quality of a Nissan vehicle, and again, I will NEVER purchase another one.

  3. Finally, I’ve learned that when the check engine light comes on in a vehicle, even if its not flashing, to take the vehicle to get diagnosed as soon as possible, as I can now see how severe the situation can get when neglected. I’ve had check engine lights light up on other vehicles I’ve owned, and from my personal experience, it was usually relative to an emissions sensor of some sort, and didn’t severely impair the vehicle, so I would hold off on replacing the sensor until emission check time came around, and everything would be fine. When the check engine light lit up initially on this Xterra, I had a friend with an OBD read the code, and it said it was related to an 02 sensor, so based off of past experience, I figured no big deal, I’ll get it fixed when the vehicle is due for an emissions test. Well, I won’t make that mistake again.

With all that said, I plan on selling this vehicle once the rebuilt engine has been installed into it, applying most of that money towards the lien on the vehicle, while using some of it as a down payment on a new vehicle with a manufacturer’s warranty. Sure, I’ll have two loans to pay on for a year or two, but I’ll take deal with it. I want to be rid of this cursed piece of machinery as soon as possible lol.

Thanks everyone, for your input and insight!

5 Likes
51

Great summary, @Kevin219!

On your #2:

  • I still have 2006 Pathfinder on my hands, just ticked over 170K miles and while not completely trouble-free, it is “kinda ok”
  • I used to have 2000 Altima, which served me well until 110K miles when I traded it
  • I had two more Altimas with CVTs, where transmission came to the pre-failure state (both around 100K miles) and I had to sell them
  • I had one Sentra with CVT where transmission failed hard at 40K, but fortunately was under warranty

I wholeheartedly support your conclusion #2 that this brand is cursed :frowning:

4 Likes
52

My father currently has a Toyota Rav4, that he purchased brand new back in 1998. It now has 317,000 miles and is still going strong. The only thing he ever had to replace on it (aside from brakes and other general maintenance) was the water pump and the timing belt. Before the Rav, he owned a Toyota 4Runner that made it to 280,000 miles before the head gasket blew. My uncle always owned Hondas, and his experience with those vehicles was always good as well. Based on their experiences with Japanese vehicles, I guess I just assumed that Nissan vehicles would possess the same reliability as Toyotas and Hondas. Well, I guess I was proven wrong. You live and you learn, I suppose.

53

I don’t have the paperwork in front of me at the moment, but from what can remember, the catalytic converter pieces damaged a valve (or gasket?) around the piston, causing oil to leak into the cylinder. I only looked at it briefly, but it was something to this extent.

54

I’m currently in “lemon” litigation about my 2019 Accord Hybrid, so there are black sheep everywhere, but Nissan is definitely not in the “generally reliable” bucket.

A friend of mine had $2500 bill for replacing the “integral control module” on his 2018 Accord Hybrid shortly after I had 5th brake failure on mine, and I had the same brake problem indication on non-hybrid loaner Accord of the same generation, so do not get too hopeful about modern Honda reliability, it is in decline by both my personal observations and by reviews.

Personally, once I get rid of my lemon Honda, I go Toyota route.

55

Thanks for the heads up on modern Hondas. I feel Toyota would be the best choice for me as well.

56

Unfortunately I doubt you’ll be able to do that without a clear title. Until the loan is paid in full it’s not yours to sell. Your best bet is to drive it until you see a we’ll-pay-off-your-trade sale and then make your best deal.

1 Like
57

You are going to have to rethink this. You can’t sell the car without paying off the lien, and you are unlikely to get $11 for it. Where I live, the Kelley Blue Book value for a mid-line 2011 Xterra with 125K miles is less than $8K. Run the numbers yourself for your exact vehicle details and location, but I don’t think the numbers will be too much rosier.

58

Right. Wasn’t fully thinking that through. I may be able to trade it in on a new vehicle though, and have the remainder of the loan added to the new vehicle loan? I’m not entirely sure, as I’ve never tried to trade in a car on a new one.

59

Yes you can get the unpaid balance added to the new vehicle loan ( that is called being upside down ) . Just plan on driving the new one for a long time as you really will be upside down for years.

60

Yeah, I’m honestly unclear as to how much this vehicle is worth. I inquired about getting the Xterra refinanced at the Credit Union that I work at, and they valued the Xterra at $10,100-- not sure where or how they came to that conclusion. I checked on Kelley Blue Book, and it put the value between $7,000 - $10,000 for my vehicles specs. Another estimation site put it between $5,000-$7,000 so I’m really lost regarding the vehicle’s value lol.

Another question I have, if anyone can answer, is about the replacement engine being put into the Xterra. Apparently the replacement engine has only 66,000 miles on it, and it will come with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty: do they roll the odometer back to represent the replacement engine’s mileage? Does it stay at 128,000 miles? If I goto trade it in with the replacement engine that has the warranty on it, should I inform the dealership that it is a replacement engine with only 66,000 miles and a warranty. All f this is new to me…

61

Is there no one at this Credit Union you work at that can explain your financial questions ? No , the vehicle mileage can’t be rolled back . Just trade the thing in and don’t volunteer info . The replacement engine will probably show up on Carfax anyway.