Given the sense of humor of adolescents, I can see the OP getting teased unmercifully if s/he drove a car named after a “marital aid.”
I could see myself, as a 16 yo, teasing the OP unmercifully.
Yes, you did miss the point.
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The Honda was less expensive as a new car to purchase. As a used car, it was more expensive. To me, that means the Honda was a smart choice as a new car, but not so smart as a used car. The perception of better quality made it’s resale value higher than a strictly objective view of costs would indicate it should be.
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If a Toyota or Honda is more reliable, how much is that worth? It seems to me the value is in the money saved. But the spread between what these cars sell for and what Detroit 3 cars sell for is much more than the difference in repair costs, and the difference is made worse when maintenance costs are included. That’s preception, not reality, that drives the cost difference.
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My 1998 Buick Regal and 2003 Olds Silhouette cost thousands less to buy new than comparable Toyota or Honda products. I am not even close to spending the difference in purchase cost between my cars and the competition. Once again, the perceived differences influence others, not reality.
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And about depreciation: My actual depreciation is much lower than the perceived depreciation for my Buick, Silhouette, Cobalt, and even my Accord. I never pay MSRP, and depreciation is figured on that basis. As you certainly know, GM has been discounting their vehicles heavily for a long, long time. Yet, those rebates and discounts aren’t included in the depreciation values. Is it a real depreciation, or a perceived one?
That article was terribly written.
It implies that the domestic brands produce fewer vehicles in the US than the imports. That simply is not true. It pulls on the old manipulated data that, at least briefly, Toyota was building more cars in the US than others. But Toyota has never built more vehicles in the US than the others, or even a higher percentage of all the cars they sold.
The difference was simply that Toyota sells a much higher % of cars vs trucks than the domestics, and the domestics were largely building their trucks in the US, and a smaller percentage of the cars they sold in the US were built in the US than were their trucks.
LOL So stipulated
Getting a car named after a mathematical object is so much more appropriate. Be sure to get the GT, with a 8000 rpm engine and 6 speed stick.
“If the OP wants a real American car (one made in the USA with the most American-made parts), he/she could try saying, “Mom and Dad, I looked at Ford, GM, and Chrysler, and I am concerned that they all seem to be made with Chinese parts and they all seem to be made outside the USA. How about this Honda Civic that is made here in the USA with more American-made parts than those so-called ‘American car companies.’” I would be interested to know how they respond.”
Well, they might respond with knowledge of facts -
The Sentra is currently built in Mexico using 19% domestic content
The Corolla is currently built only in Canada and Japan, using 50% domestic content
The Civic is currently built in Japan, Canada, and the US (most imported) using 65% domestic content
The Cobalt is currently built in the US only, using 70% domestic content
The Caliber is currently built in the US only, using 79% domestic content
The Focus is currently built in the US only, using 90% domestic content
…and here I always thought “vibe” was short for “vibration.”
I think you both may be making the mistake of assuming resale value is directly related to reliability or quality. It may be indirectly related, but directly, resale value is simply a function of supply and demand. Typically, Honda produces fewer cars than their competitors, which keeps the supply down. Also, owners of Hondas tend to keep them for a long time, keeping the supply if used vehicles down. Yes, people are willing to pay more for used Hondas, and the reasons for this are many and complicated. Many of them are willing to pay more because they perceive quality and reliability in those vehicles, but you can’t say demand for used Hondas is high for a single reason, and you can’t ignore the supply side pressure on the price of used cars.
Mike, wherever it was made, the '91 Acclaim won my undying affection when the one I was driving was rear-ended by an 18-wheeler on I-87, spun 540 degrees, bounced off an Aerostar (both cars having children on board), and we all walked away with no serious hurt.
A few points:
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According to ALG, the Ford Fusion now commands $1600 MORE than a Toyota Camry at 3 years of age, despite being the cheaper vehicle when new.
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Hondas and Toyotas WERE more reliable - now its pretty much a statistical tie between most manufacturers, according to EVERY reputable survey.
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Ford did NOT buy their hybrid technology from Toyota. That is a myth that has been propagated for years. Ford developed their own system, then found out that it was too close to some of Toyota’s patents in the US. The US patent system is so screwed up that Ford could have legally sold their hybrids in Europe, where they recognize the differences and more tightly control patent grants, but in the US it was questionable. To get around that, though, Ford didn’t spend a cent. Why? Because Toyota had the exact same problem with gasoline direct injection. Ford had patents in the US that kept Toyota from using that technology. So they agreed to license the patents to each other. Both developed their technology on their own, and they simply agreed not to sue each other over those patents. Portraying this as Ford “buying” the technology from Toyota has been popular, but is patently false.
The Focus is built in various countries around the world; but the ones sold in the US are built here. The new Ford Fiesta will be built in Mexico for the US and Canada, the German plant will build them for Europe.
Both Focus and Fiesta are “world cars”.
“3) Ford did NOT buy their hybrid technology from Toyota. That is a myth that has been propagated for years. Ford developed their own system, then found out that it was too close to some of Toyota’s patents in the US. The US patent system is so screwed up that Ford could have legally sold their hybrids in Europe, where they recognize the differences and more tightly control patent grants, but in the US it was questionable. To get around that, though, Ford didn’t spend a cent. Why? Because Toyota had the exact same problem with gasoline direct injection. Ford had patents in the US that kept Toyota from using that technology. So they agreed to license the patents to each other. Both developed their technology on their own, and they simply agreed not to sue each other over those patents. Portraying this as Ford “buying” the technology from Toyota has been popular, but is patently false.”
Toyota lost a suit filed by a US inventor that patented the high voltage hybrid. They were directed to pay a royalty foe every hybrid Toyota built until about 2009 that was sold in the USA. They were also directed to pay a royalty for every new high voltage hybrid they sold in the future until the patent expired. Toyota’s response was to pay up and lower the voltage of their hybrids below the patented range.
“I think you both may be making the mistake of assuming resale value is directly related to reliability or quality.”
Yes, it is directly related to quality. Not just reliability, but there is a direct relationship. Supply and demand are indicators that someone likes something enough to bid up the price; sometimes to unrealistically high levels. But that may be what you mean, Whitey.
I stand corrected.
All the major car companies are global now. Design and manufacture of sub assemblies and final vehicles happens all over the world. While the brand names may hav originated in Detroit or in Japan, the cars themselves originate from a composit of design and manufacturing skills worldwide.
But that’s not relevant. The OP’s parents want to buy him an “American” car. We should respect their wishes and provide input based on that criterion. And so should the OP.
By the way, Mark, I too love the old iron. I lived it. And I still believe that up throuogh the '60s and into the early '70s the “Big Three” made the absolute best, most durable, and most reliable cars in the world for the working class. Even in the luxury class Cadillac and Lincoln were considered among the world’s finest. And the finest designs aesthetically too. The early '70s Camaro, Mustang, and 'Vette were among the best looking cars ever. The Charger was right “up there” too, although it was a bit large for my taste.
I wish I could wax nostalgic with you about cars from that era, but I can’t. Instead I will pose a question.
Which is better in terms of reliability and longevity, the best of that era, or the worst of this era? If you were being practical, what would you choose for your family car, a 1970 Lincoln, or a 2010 Dodge Nitro?
I would agree. Every time I have rented a vibe it has impressed me with good handling, good responsive powertrain and good fuel economy.
I do not know the build status or the crash ratings.
The interior quality sucks, but the important bits of the car are good.
I drive an American car. My next car would also be an American car. But I cannot get away from a feeling that they have been made to a budget by the cheapest supplier.
The small sized European and Japanese cars have a much better fit and finish.
With respect to “American” cars, the Lincoln Town Car, the Mercury Grand Marquis, and the Ford Crown Victoria are last built in Canada. The plant is closing permanently when the final production run ends. The Crown Vic qualified as a “foreign” car, since Ford went to great length to put as many foreign (Spanish, Mexican, Chinese, Candian, etc) parts in to have a less than 50% US content. This apparently helped with the overall CAFE levies.
As luck would have it, these “American” cars have good longevity and safety.
My mother-in-law has a number of General Electric small appliances and electronic gadgets; not a single one is made in the USA or, for that matter, by General Electric. The brand was sold a long time ago to the Chinese. The actual small appliance division was sold to Black & Decker.
3) Ford did NOT buy their hybrid technology from Toyota. That is a myth that has been propagated for years. Ford developed their own system, then found out that it was too close to some of Toyota’s patents in the US.
Please read…
vs…Wikipedia ?
Many of them are willing to pay more because they perceive quality and reliability in those vehicles, but you can’t say demand for used Hondas is high for a single reason, and you can’t ignore the supply side pressure on the price of used cars.
I whole heartedly agree that supply and demand have the major impact on used car prices. But to dismiss that Hondas and Camrys are “perceived” to be more reliable and that only for impacting demand is to deny that CR does not contribute to that perception and invalidates their test survey results. If that’s our stand, it seems reasonable to never quote CR again as only perception and not reality is their motivating force.
But to reference to why Hondas cost more than Fords based mainly upon perception negates the facts…the perception is based upon reality often. Honda Accords are, have been, and until some one shows me an independent survey to verify differently (other than JD power, independent it is not), will remain more reliable than Fords, GMs and Chryslers of like design intent.
We buy GM plow trucks, because they are over all, less expensive to operate… not because they are more reliable than Asian offerings (though in full size they often are). I think that a similar distinction has to be made as well that a Ford Focus (Taurus and Fusion as well) over time, may be a less expensive vehicle to operate and own than a Civic or Corolla. Are they more reliable ? I think not ! And that perception of reality drives the demand for Corollas and Civics up and Focus down…
Making Fords for many of us, perhaps me included, a better buy.
"Which is better in terms of reliability and longevity, the best of that era, or the worst of this era?"
I’m sort of with Jay Leno on this. Until foreign manufacturers got the hang of it, on our soil, nothing beat a big slow turning motor in a heavy sedan of that era to handle the demands of high mileage American drivers. Cars made in countries that are smaller and closer than our states, didn’t stand a chance. The 70’s oil crunch changed everything. We’ve been playing catch up for a long time and still make the best slow turning motors in heavy sedans…but that’s not where most are at and sales are reflecting the change. There’s nothing we can’t do better…let’s hope we do it before car making goes the way of the “stereo, Tv and most electronics.”