Warranty/Insurance

Maintenance/Repairs
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121

It might be in the crankcase

You’d have to carefully drain the engine oil into a clean tub. Then it would be fairly obvious, if we’re talking a large amount of water

The proper thing to do . . . in my opinion . . . would be to run the engine until proper operating temperature for all the fluids was reached. Then carefully maneuver that clean tub into place, so that you can capture all of the fluid(s) that drain out

I’m saying this because if, say, an engine has a bad headgasket or bad lower intake gasket, in the case of V-engines, not all of the coolant will get burnt up. Some of it will find its way into the crankcase. And when you drain the fluids into a clean tub, it’s clear that there’s other fluids besides engine oil.

How did things go in this direction?

Last time we heard about the field engineer, his position was pretty firm. Sounds like he’s willing to entertain other possibilities. Or does he merely want to make sure it gets diagnosed correctly?

Will what’s on your recording(s) be “admissible” later on, if need be?

Is the dealer and corporate yet aware that you are in fact an attorney, and ready to start sending sign-on-delivery type of correspondence? I think somebody on this forum refers to them as “demand letters” . . . ?

As for the engine being taken apart . . . does that look like it will happen?

If it does happen, and the rods are bent without a doubt and there is water in the crankcase, I still think the damage occurred before you even bought the car

If so, I suspect it happened shortly before the car was traded in, and perhaps when you bought the car, not enough drive cycles with the fault recognized had occurred for the fault code to “mature” and request the check engine light to be illuminated

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Very possible

And as we all know, if you’re not watching like a hawk while draining that oil, you might miss the fact that some water also drained out

If you’re like a lot of guys . . . including me . . . you’ll set up the drain underneath the engine oil pan. Then you’ll remove the drain plug, quickly set it aside and do something else during those few minutes while the oil is draining. Something else, as in checking the tires, exhaust, or what have you

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124

Weve been talking with the area district supervisor (not sure if exact title). The field engineer works for him. The field engineer originally reviewed the diagnostics and rendered an opinion on the water ingestion and warranty denial but never actually inspected the vehicle. The district guy said that was wrong and that the FE shouldn’t have told the dealer anything except that they would need to get into the engine before knowing for sure. The FE comes out this Wednesday, so we’ll see what happens. Ultimately, it’s up to the district supervisor on the warranty question.

We had the car for two weeks before the CEL came on. Lots of drive cycles so I don’t know about a preexisting water issue.

If they find water in the engine, our insurance will cover it.

The dealer knows I’m a lawyer. It’s not a magic bullet. Toyota has tons of lawyers, and they get demand letters everyday. They’ll get one from me, if needed, at the right time.

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125

@Brent89. I think as well as fixing your vehicle under the warranty, Toyota should also pay you for your time you have had to spend to resolve this issue.

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126

I’m glad to hear things are slowly but surely progressing

If you . . . or anybody else in your household, for that matter . . . got enough water in there to bend a rod, I have a hard time believing you’d not remember the particular incident

Even if water is found, don’t be too surprised if in the end the engine and/or repair just gets goodwilled. It is often better to do a goodwill repair, even if the customer is somehow/technically in the wrong, versus slamming the door in his face and taking the chance that he might badmouth the dealer to several of his friends, neighbors and churchgoers, thus depriving the dealership of a few potential new car sales . . .

I do my homework before making rather large purchases. I read reviews, ask friends, colleagues, etc. for their opinions and experiences before pulling the trigger. And I even pay attention how a company treats negative reviews and handles problems and complaints. There’s undoubtedly many people like me who don’t like spending their hard-earned money before doing a bunch of research.

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It occurred to me that the low pressure fuel pump was replaced under a recall just before we bought the Highlander. Any chance it malfunctioned and caused the air-fuel mixture and misfire codes, or any of the other engine issues?

Also, the dealer took a picture of the throttle body, and it looked like a fluid stain on the inside. Someone said it looked like starter fluid had been sprayed in it. Might they have sprayed starter fluid in it after replacing the fuel pump?

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The low pressure fuel pump failures cause engine stalling and a low fuel pressure fault stored in the engine ECU.

There is no need to lift the hood during a fuel pump replacement, the engine will start after a few seconds of cranking, starting fluid is something you would find on the farm.

The stains in the throttle body do not prove anything, they just influenced the tech to check for water damage to the engine.

Was this someone in the repair profession or someone on a message board?

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Maybe the previous owner was sold an unneeded “induction cleaning” at some point in a past maintenance life and the stains are the result of some type of cleaner; of which there are many.

i still say the easiest way to determine high water is to remove the driver’s door sill plate, raise the carpet, and see if there is any dirt or dried mud there. Every car that I’ve ever seen that suffered high water had debris under the carpet. This should take less than 10 minutes and if it’s clean under the carpet then water certainly did not enter the engine.
Tear apart an engine to check for water intrusion? Just my opinion, but that is insanity.

130

I don’t see it that way

If I’m going to be denied warranty coverage because of water intrusion, you can be darn sure I want them to SHOW me the proof, which means showing me the bent rod and the water in the crankcase

Anything less, and they can expect to start receiving those demand letters which we already mentioned

At least that’s how I would approach it

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131

I can fully understand your point. The part that would bother me (and especially considering the amount of BS the OP has had to go through so far) is that they will tear the engine down, claim water intrusion anyway in spite of evaporated evidence if it ever existed) and then tell the OP they are on their own with an engine in pieces.

Seriously though; what’s wrong with pulling the carpet up? Simple enough and with no lingering damage. Over the years I’ve run into several problem cars (not related to engine damage) involving electrical issues and with the carpet pulled up, kick panels removed, etc to trace wiring it could be seen that the car had been diving before.

One sold used car returned several times for chronic electrical problems. How hard could it be? The car only had 3500 miles on it. Third trip in with another problem and with the carpet up I found that it was actually 2 cars that had been spliced together. Weld ran clean across the floor approximately where the dash panel was at. From one side to the other. The boss thought he got a deal on that one and he felt so bad about it that he bought the car back from the buyers and sold it as scrap. A shame as it was like new in and out but hideously unsafe. And he took it in trade with a clean title too…

As I stated before, dealer detail guys will clean the car in and out but they are not going to clean in those unseen areas.

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My college roomie had a first generation Dodge Colt we discovered was a spliced car when it began sagging in the middle. Pulling up the carpet we found a lot of broken glass shards and the weld which was coming apart.

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That’s right. Any kind of warranty and/or lemon law claim will require an inspection of the internal parts of the motor, as will Toyota’s final warranty denial or approval. It’s inevitable, unless the field engineer changes his mind at this Wednesday’s inspection and decides there’s no water intrusion, bent rod, or that it’s a sensor or something else. Doubtful, but not impossible.

This is exactly my fear! If this happens, the lemon law claim moves forward while the motor is apart and the car sits at the dealer.

This was part of the insurance inspection. Zero indication of water intrusion. But Toyota is saying it only takes hitting a puddle “the wrong way.” Most others are saying you’d have to bury the front end of a Highlander to get water in the air intake. Anyway, no evidence of water intrusion anywhere else on the vehicle.

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134

Actually, it was stated thusly-

Since they are using the presence of these streaks as evidence of water intrusion, what is your PROFESSIONAL assessment of their origin?

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I can’t see how you could hit a puddle the wrong way unless it submerged the SUV. I looked on line to see the engine air intake. It’s on top of the radiator cover, just under the hood. Air goes through the grill and through the radiator your over the top of the radiator and into the engine air intake. There are two configurations, but both use the same location for air intake. The black box with the grill in top of the gray panel at the front of the engine bay is the air intake. Water intrusion there? A bath in a lake might do that, but nothing on the road will.

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136

Back in 1991, I bought a 1990 Ford Aerostar from a trusted used car dealer. The Aerostar had the balance of the factory warranty. After a year, the Aerostar developed a problem. The Ford dealership’s service department determined after pulling a cylinder head that it had a hairline crack. Enough coolant had gotten into the cylinder that the service manager said that the engine had to be replaced. This was done at no cost to me. I didn’t hear the service manager say that the engine must have overheated and the warranty wouldn’t cover the repair. The Aerostar had never overheated when I owned it. The used car dealer that sold me the Aerostar furnished me a car to drive while the Aerostar was being repaired. The Ford dealership hadn’t even sold me the car and yet they honored the warranty. The only money I was out was to the parking services at the university where I taught. My yearly parking permit cost almost $200 and I still had to pay $15 for a two week temporary parking pass. When the Aerostar repair wasn’t completed in two weeks, I had to buy another temporary pass.
One thing that I find troubling is the amount of time the OP has had to spend on this matter. We had a car that was totaled in an accident. The other party was completely at fault. The insurance company of the person that totaled our car wanted to give me $3150–said that was “market value”. The dealer that knew my car said that it was worth between $3900 and $4200 and if it was in his lot, he wouldn’t sell it for less than $4000. I told the insurance adjuster to find an equivalent car for $3150, get a guaranteed price from the dealer and I would either take the car or the cash. The adjuster became indignant and said he did not do car shopping. I told him that if I had to shop for a replacement car, I would bill him for my time at the rate I charged to do consulting work as a research design consultant. The adjuster hung up. I had the rental car furnished by his insurance company and I really didn’t care how long it took. The adjuster called back the next day and we agreed on $4000.
My advice to the OP is that if you have to take this further, you should demand payment for your time from the dealer and Toyota. If I came to you with a legal issue, I would expect to be billed for your time. When I did consulting work on my time, I certainly invoiced a client.

137

Thanks for posting the picture. The location of the air intake is what’s so maddening about Toyota’s position that even rain the “wrong way” could get in.

When I meet with the field engineer this week, while we’re standing there looking at the air intake, I’m going to have him explain how rain or ordinary puddles can splash that high to produce enough water to bend a rod but still have a completely clean air intake and like new (unstained) air filter.

As for my time and time without the vehicle, to be fair to Toyota, they are paying for two of our car payments.

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138

See if you can get that in writing. Having owned and driven many low-to-the-ground small cars, including currently a Daewoo Lanos, and having driven these cars on wet and flooded roads without a problem, I can’t see this being true. If true, this would be an admission that the vehicle is unfit for its intended purpose, which is to be driven on public roads during any reasonable weather conditions.

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139

@Brent89 I am glad Toyota is giving you some compensation.

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140

Agreed. We brought this up in our first meeting with the dealer. If it can happen that easily, then the car’s not driveable.

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141

If it was that easy to hydrolock an engine, we’d have thousands of them, and hundreds of posts here.

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