Ok, so you went to them after the dealer denied coverage. Please quote to us exactly what is on the paperwork from the dealer denying coverage.
Also have the codes read at a parts store and let us know what they are.
This is the only paperwork weâve received regarding the denial of warranty coverage. All other representations have been oral. Weâve demanded all diagnostics but been refused.
So low compression on #4 (edit and 6). I donât understand why thatâs grounds for denial. You may have to get a lawyer.
Do the have any proof of water intrusion?
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I see low compression on cylinder 4 & 6.
Tester
Which could be anything from burnt/pitted valves to a worn timing chain to defective piston rings, even a head gasket leaking between cylinders. I donât see anything in writing about water intrusion, or any other explanation for the problem. Regardless, if taking the vehicle to a different dealer doesnât help, it may be time to contact the zone rep, and if that doesnât give results, lawyer up.
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I am a lawyer but lead a nonprofit legal services organization. Iâm just trying to get educated on the technical side and behind the scenes dealer info as some have provided.
The dealer has mentioned pictures of the throttle body but, again, has refused to provide any of the evidence. Also states that the diagnostics trouble code indicated misfire. We can litigate the warranty and win, but better and far less time consuming to resolve without going down that road.
It seems possible that thereâs actually nothing wrong and the CEL was on for some other reason.
With 29,000 miles? Seems unlikely. Also, as I mentioned, compression test yesterday did not show low compression on any cylinders.
Itâs more likely than the theory that the engine ingested water, resulting in bent connecting rod(s) that are bent ever so slightly that the engine still runs mostly well, and without any trace of water in the intake, air cleaner, oil pan, etc.
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Understood. Which means warranty coverage.
I think I forgot to mention that the Toyota field service rep inspected the HL and agreed with the dealer.
If youâre a lawyer, than you know itâs time for a strong letter indicating that your next step will be the filing of a complaint.
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If it was water, warranty wonât cover it unless you can show it was like that when you bought it. And your insurance will say itâs a warranty issue.
It means that the air filter has been replaced and the intake manifold has dried out. What little amount of water that got past the piston rings would have boiled away in ten minutes.
If you believe that you were sold a damaged vehicle this matter would be between you and the sales department of the dealer, the service department is stuck in the middle and doesnât have the authority to give engines away.
Suppose for the sake of argument that the vehicle really was driven through a flooded road at some point in the past, prior to the OP buying it as CPO from this dealer. And let us suppose that the diagnosis of two bent connecting rods is correct.
The fact that the vehicle (allegedly) underwent a CPO inspection, was found to be in good condition, and carries a warranty as long as the OP follows the maintenance regimen should prevail. IF there was undetected engine damage from abuse by the previous owner, Toyota and/or the selling dealer needs to cover it under the CPO warranty.
In any case, it appears that the dealer is trying to claim that the OP caused the damage, but has no evidence to support this theory. The fact that several items on the CPO inspection checklist were signed-off even though they clearly were deficient further boosts the customerâs credibility, although an inspection by a separate shop against the CPO checklist would be needed to submit this claim as evidence.
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You need to start sending physical correspondence in the mail to the dealer AND corporate
And you need to send the letters as the lawyer you are, not the customer
Your legal credentials need to be bold and unmistakable in the letterhead
And the letters have to be âsign on deliveryâ meaning they can NOT claim they didnât get them
Since the dealer claims to have evidence that the engine ingested water, they need to provide that
I think this is a case of low compression . . . it says so right on the paperwork, but it doesnât state just how low, or any numbers for that matter . . . leading the mechanic(s) to assume it must be due to a bent rod. Is this called confirmation bias, or something like that?
You NEED to post those numbers. Tell youâre insurance estimator you need them. Just because he said theyâre equal and up to spec, doesnât mean that they are. His understanding of equal and up to spec might be hopelessly outdated, depending on how long heâs been at it and how current his information is. I know a lot of guys who think 125psi in all cylinders means great compression. Thatâs woefully inadequate for most engines I can think of.
The dealer needs to provide evidence that water ingestion occurred . . . or shut the heck up and honor the claim
I think this engine might have been damaged goods before you even bough the car . . . which apparently shouldnât have had CPO status to begin with. We already know the inspection process was a _______ joke
As such, the best thing might indeed be to get the car bought back at no loss to you, since youâre not the one who did anything wrong
Now that weâve established what kind of correspondence you need to send, keep your insurance in mind as step 2, or the backup plan, if you will
It seems your insurance estimator doesnât necessarily agree with the dealerâs findings, at least thatâs how I read it.
And even if he does agree with them, canât you file a claim?
If you do, I assume your rates might go up as a result, but still a better situation than where youâre at, because it sounds like the engine has been partially disassembled
it sounds very weak, to be honest. And again, theyâre probably seeing everything through a colored lens of bias, meaning theyâre interpreting things to confirm what they want to believe
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Iâm in agreement with everything stated by db4690. Maybe a registered letter with your letterhead which lets them know you are an attorney will cause them to rethink things. It does not matter what part of the legal field you work in.
One thing they do not want is to go to court as there are multiple strikes against them on the CPO check list. As mentioned, if it were me I would want them to buy the car back and wash my hands of the entire thing.
If it has been underwater then the transmission along with the rest of the drivetrain, brakes, suspension, and all has been submerged and will likely produce problems sooner rather than later.
As mentioned, it was more than likely pencil whipped. When OK had a vehicle safety inspection program no one wanted to do them; especially me and certainly not for a measly 2 dollars. I routinely pencil whipped inspections no matter the threat of fines and jail time. I just did not care and the program was a joke of the highest order anyway.
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The vehicle is still covered by the factory warranty, Toyota Extra Care wonât pay for any repairs until the factory warranty expires.
Toyota Motors will not pay for any damages that occurred before or after the sale. If the engine is damaged and this occurred before the sale, it is up to the sales department of the selling dealer to make things right.
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I wonder if a Carfax or Carchek search might show some history? Maybe even a washed title? Thereâs got to be some kind of a paper trail in there somewhere.
There was a story some years ago about an insurance company being involved in title washing in Ohio I believe it was and they were fined millions of dollars. I hesitate to name the company as the details are murky to me due to the passage of time but it was a national insurer who advertises constantly.
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Thanks again, everyone. Just a couple of responses.
The CarFax was clear. One owner, bought new, serviced, and traded in at the same dealer where we bought it.
The insurance estimator stated that the compression was at 190 psi on all cylinders.
Whether Toyota corporate may share liability with the dealer would be determined by the facts and application of state and federal law. There are scenarios where Toyota could be liable for damage that occurred before the purchase.
Already did file an insurance claim based solely on the dealerâs representation of âoutside influence.â This is why the insurance estimator is involved. If the insurer determines that water intruded, as the dealer has represented, our comprehensive will cover the loss. Our rate my increase but comprehensive claims do not generally cause significant increases. However, the insurance claim would likely significantly decrease the HLâs value which might mean a claim against the dealer for the diminished value.
One more technical question: What would cause the compression level to be low on two cylinders on one reading, then normal a week later?
Because the dealership mechanic performing the compression test is an idiot? . . . donât assume everybody working there is a genius of the highest order. A lot of guys at dealerships are pretty much fresh out of some âtechnical institute.â And these are for profit-places that couldnât care less if the kids actually learned something, or merely had a pulse. Theyâre feeder programs for dealerships, nothing more and nothing less
When youâre performing the compression test, it can make a big difference if you stop counting at 3 puffs, versus 5, for example
I think you may have been onto something when you stated the insurance estimator seemed more competent than the dealership personnel . . .
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