I can only speak from my personal experiences with hydrolock but I have yet to see an engine ruined because of it. In theory, rods can and probably do in some instances, bend but not in the ones Iv’e seen.
Several cars were hydrolocked due to water and suffered no engine damage. One was a Subaru with a flat Boxer 4 engine that allows the cylinders to sit down low. And it sat in 2 feet of flood water all night long.
Most were hydrocked due to gasoline excess or motor oil overfilling. Several of the oil overfilled engines were diesels which carry normally 450 PSI of compression. Or more. Not one of those diesels suffered a connecting rod problem in spite of those pressures. Cleared out the oil and all was fine although someone forgot to place a cover over the injector ports and motor oil sprayed clean over to the other wall in the shop and which took the porter several hours of cursing and cleaning to resolve.
This went from a bent rod of 2 to 4 MM to a bent rod of 1 to 2 MM and now water ingestion is a theory (what else could it be) along with a " possibility there could be a tweaked rod" as well.
The Toyota master tech is correct when he says it can’t happen and the whole thing is smacking of throwing denial mud against the wall and hoping some of it sticks. At this point they are just guessing.
It’s been stated that corporate Toyota has no hand in this. So why is the service manager saying that Toyota is using stains to deny the claim? Lying or BSing, which is quite common with the vast majority of service writers and service managers. Of the ones I’ve worked with over the years only 2 SMs and maybe 5% of service writers deserved to have their jobs. The rest were wastes of oxygen and you would be appalled at some of the downright idiocy of some of them. Paper shufflers is all they are.
Example. A local GM and former Chrysler dealer has run ads for service writers and warranty clerks. Their ads state “No mechanical experience necessary. Must be computer literate”. That’s the sum total of their job requirements and the writers (a.ka.service advisors) are the “service experts” telling you how it is.
The local Chrysler/Dodge dealer first opened and made his wife the service manager. In a fluff newspaper story about a woman working in a man’s world he stated that “She doesn’t know anything about cars but she knows how to work people”. So. The gender is irrelevant. She spoon feeds BS and knows how to manipulate.
A follow up story showed a pic of the Chrysler techs and bragged about hundreds of years of experience along with pics of them and how many decades each had on Chryslers.
A year or so later another similar story with a pic showed all of those guys now gone and replaced by what looks like young guys fresh out of trade school. Those are the ones more easily manipulated…
And one of their ads hiring new techs stated “great benefits such as a soda machine”. A pay machine at that. Wow…
Again, pardon the length of this but I can get kind of wound up over some things. I hope this brings a tiny bit of insight into how some things go on behind the scenes.
I just can’t help commenting. My folks bought a 78 Plymouth Volaire (brand new) but it had an oil consumption problem and brought it back to the dealer. When my dad went to check with them, they had the whole engine disassembled and laying on the ground. After whatever they discovered (probably ring grooves lined up), they put it all back together again no charge.
On one of my Acuras I had changed the serp belt at about 40K or so just because I’m OCD. It developed a squeak whether it was something I did or not I don’t know. At any rate before the dealer got done with it, they had replaced the timing belt, tensioner, serp belt, and all the other guts to get rid of the noise. No charge.
Seems to me at this point, Toyota should just yank the engine and at least do a full inspection of the parts at no charge. Taking pictures through the spark plug holes just doesn’t seem to do it. My view of Toyota is again on a downward trajectory. What good is a machine if you can’t depend on service after the sale?
I’ve done a stint as a service manager and actually hated it. Dealing with corporate or unreasonable customers (which are few in number) was much more frustrating that busting a knuckle open and bleeding profusely. Much more; and it was dealing with corporate that was the most maddening.
That Toyota zone rep IS corporate Toyota so maybe time to take it a notch up to the main HQs and let the zone rep know of your intentions. I can’t speak as to this rep’s abilities, but all of the ones I dealt with except for one were somewhat shallow on mechanical expertise.
If this car has no maintenance records in the Toyota data base I suspect it suffered an event of some sort; maybe by a DIYer, a fast lube facility, or even an independent garage.
I used to go out of my way and spend a lot of time arguing with corporate over why X repair should be warrantable or why a Good Will warranty should be performed. In some questionable cases (and since I’m a bit mechanically inclined) I knew how to fudge the truth with parts or paperwork to make it pass muster and get the customer off the hook. Ethically correct? Nope. But in cases where I felt the customer was being screwed over I did what I needed to do. Take the following 2 cases; short form and which accomplished nothing for either party.
Subaru, 30k miles and as new. All dealer maintenance done and always garaged. Auto transmission blew up at that mileage through no fault of the customer. Subaru told him to go away and only 2 months out of warranty. Subaru corporate would not budge one inch and even cover part of the 5+ grand repair bill.
Subaru, 85k miles (and a few months after the above) a year out of warranty, no maintenance ever done, and the owner standing at the counter bragging for 5 minutes straight about abusing the cxxp out of it in the oil field with commercial use before wiping the manual trans. I told him no warranty for numerous reasons. He blew up and called Subaru corporate who instantly authorized a full repair under warranty even after being told it was going to need much more than the individual transmission repair. DO IT they said. I told them they were going to regret this and all parties did. Except me…
The thing had to be torched apart because of rust and oil field chemicals. When told of this Subaru said no way; we’re not paying for that although I told them on the first call it was going to have to be torched. Rust and chemicals had mangled this thing.
So the car sat in pieces limbo for months and was never reassembled; followed eventually by scrapping.
Goes to show with corporate that logic is often a lost cause.
All service records are in the Toyota database. Bought, Regularly serviced, traded in, and resold at the same dealer. Could there be some unreported servicing or event? Sure.
Thank you, db4690. I’ve attached tech documentation indicating 30% leak down on cylinder 4. The tech also says he can “hear it loudest in crankcase.” Can someone explain what that number and the tech’s comments might mean?
If he can “hear it loudest in crankcase”, it means pressure is escaping downward, possibly past a scuffed cylinder, worn rings, something along those lines . . . which is why some of the guys are wondering if the problem is perhaps not a bent rod, but those other things which were just mentioned
A borescope could be used to look for a scuffed cylinder, but the piston would have to to be on bottom dead center
As for those worn rings, nothing short of a teardown will prove that, in my opinion
I wonder if that cylinder had a leaky injector which would have washed the oil from the cyl wall. That could lead to lower compression readings and the 30% increase in leakdown numbers.
As db4690 noted, check that cylinder for being scuffed. But then also make sure they look at the other cylinders to see if they are scuffed.
If #4 is the only one that is scuffed, and if they’re claiming bent rod, a leaky injector should be investigated.
Given the severity of the leak down I strongly suspect that if the engine is torn down and even assuming the cylinder wall is not scored or scuffed badly that it will be found out of spec as to cylinder taper and egg when checked with a micrometer.
The only alternative in that case is resleeving the cylinder and re-boring which in a case like this would mean a new short or long block and forget the re-sleeve as costs associated with sleeving and a complete engine overhaul would be the more expensive alternative. What a mess.
And consider that the tech reports shows all of the cylinders are abnormally low. Could it be that the prior owner was someone who just just drove foot on the floor all the time and just whaled this car into the ground?
On the other hand, the field engineer reported his leakdown test as normal.
“A cylinder leak down test was performed on Bank 2 side of the engine (Cylinders #2-4-6). No abnormalities were observed or recorded. Leak down was recorded within manufacturer specifications.”
Is it common for these test results to vary like that?
Okay, so the guy’s probably not some snot-nose kid . . .
I hate to be a downer, but here goes . . .
Just because somebody is some kind of master tech . . . he’s probably a Toyota-certified master tech. Which isn’t the same thing as an ASE master tech. Believe me, I’m one to know, because I’ve been a dealer master tech and I’m currently an ASE master tech.
Dealer master tech simply means you’ve passed the dealership’s standards of mediocrity
And as far as shop foremen, they’re not all equal. I’ve known a lot of guys who were “mere” mechanics who didn’t want to do any paperwork or administrative stuff. But they could and did regularly put their shop foremen to shame, when it came to actual skills. It was a case of the shop foremen asking the mechanics on the floor for technical advice, whereas some would argue it should be the other way around . . .
In some cases, guys want to be shop foremen because they enjoy being ___ kissers and like the feeling of power.
I don’t know that I’ve seen a complaint on this board with so much varying input from so many involved in the testing of this car. Compression is good, compression is bad on 4, compression is bad on all, bent rod from 1 to 4 MM and MAY be tweaked which means may not be bent at all. And no sign of water intrusion other than a throttle body stain which may not be water at all.
My gut feeling is that if this car was in the hands of some of the board members here a definitive answer would be had very quickly.
I mention driving habits because of a young man who lived close to me. From the age of 16 to 21 he trashed 21 cars; and none of them were beaters when he got them. (All less than 5 years old with low miles) After half a dozen trashings and knowing I was a mechanic he asked me a few questions. My suspicions were up so I suggested a ride.
That was the last ride with him. Every single stop sign or traffic light he acted like John Force. The final nail was when he did a touch and go at a stop sign and darted out in front of loaded dump truck which barely missed us with horn blaring. I said I’ve seen enough and figured it out. Back to the house. After I got out I told him the problem was him; not the cars. Didn’t matter; the trashings continued.
A Toyota service technician must hold 4 ASE certifications to be ranked as a Senior tech and 8 certifications to qualify as a Toyota Master technician.
The Toyota technician records are linked to the ASE system data base, they know when your certifications expire.
Just to add to what db4690 said, some Master Techs should be apprentices at best. Some people are good test takers and score high on a subject they may not know that much about. As Jeremy Clarkson formerly of Top Gear always used to say “How hard could it be?”.
Many years ago I spent 2 years in aviation school and was confident at test time. The test was very analytical in nature, 42 pages long, and we were given 6 hours to complete it. Out of 2 dozen guys only one passed and by the skin of his teeth. There were 3 sections. Failure of one negated all of them and I flunked all 3 sections by scoring in the 45 to 50 percentile. It was soul crushing to me. The instructor had always taken a special interest in me because I’m a genuine aircraft buff. So I put in another 100 hours after the course was over with just him and me one on one with both of his aircraft before the 90 day wait before a retest. As a bonus, he even threw in some free flying lessons.
I had to make a trip to the FAA center in OK City for the re-do and I was the only one there. They frisked me for crib sheets and locked me in a room. Two weeks later I got the results and scored in the 90 percentile on all 3 sections. My aircraft class instructor and FAA examiner figured my first bad failure was due to sheer nerves.
I’ve also been an ASE and Subaru Master Tech and Subaru does not care about ASE certifications; or at least they did not when I worked for them.
Db4690 is correct about standards. There are good field engineers and shop foremen along with what shall be called “misguided” ones.
I’ve also worked with a couple of of shop foremen as db4690 describes them; full of themselves.
A shop foreman I worked with at one Subaru dealer always said that “anybody who needs diagnostic equipment is an idiot. They should be able to figure it out on their own”. I could provide a few stories on that guy…
