Mike apples to rocks. I moved from WI to MA. House difference was $135k vs $390k for similar. Salary jumped appropriately. You can’t make the comparison you are making in compensation.
And other parts of the country pay even LESS.
My company has an office in Ohio (we bought out a small company there). Salary differences for the engineers there is about 20% less then what I pay here in MA. Teachers salary is about same 20% less. So we have the same ratio…and the same question gets asked…Why become a teacher (especially science or math) when you can go work in the private sector at almost twice your salary.
I moved from WI to MA. House difference was $135k vs $390k for similar. Salary jumped appropriately
You’re saying your salary jumped 200%…I don’t think so.
It sounds like you interpreted my comment as a direct criticism of you. I was just trying to make the more general point.
What else can we base are opinions on if not personal experience ?
There are plenty of things. For one thing its practically impossible to get unions without knowing labor history - where they came from, why they exist at all, what it took to get them. Plenty is known about the genesis & development and unions. Then there is actual, professional research on contemporary work & working conditions. We are far from limited by our own personal experiences. Good history and representative data are perfectly possible and used a lot.
In fact, if one is to get the place of unions in the world then one must be able to look past their own experiences to the entire context. Love them or hate them if the Teamsters didn’t exist in the world your job would suck - if it sucks already then it would suck a lot more.
Look - through the 19th century a bunch of largely blue blood characters managed to change the laws governing incorporation. This made possible massive, massive corporations. These are things that dominate markets - both markets for goods and services and labor markets. Go back to the first huge businesses in the US starting with things like textile mills and then up through railroads and mining. Look at the labor practices and control that these things had over labor markets - over entire communities. The fact that people have the right to take or leave a job or change jobs doesn’t mean that employees and employers are on equal footing. Corporate laws allow corporations to exercise lots of control over labor markets. Unions are basically the way that normal working folk have for competing for that control. The fact that they can turn into massive, problem-producing juggernauts is not in question. That’s what large organizations - labor, corporate, state - do. That’s why I said unions create problems but as long as corporations and states are massive we are better off with them.
None of that implies that anyone has a “right” to drag their feet or whatever. I’m not sure why you turned it into a point about the morality of work. The point there had nothing whatsoever to do with “rights” or even right or wrong. I was trying to point out that where unions are weaker, working conditions are worse for most people. And this will show up in attitudes. If we want to talk about “rights” or the morality of work then I am absolutely with you.
Its my opinion that they would have revolted against the current form of the corporation if they really understood what the hell was going on the world.
Well, I do not use appropriately in the place of exactly!
However, if we factor in all of the incentives, I made well over 300% of my previous base salary the first year I moved. It dropped to 200% the second and subsequent years.
The last time I checked, the salary survey showed much > 20% cost of living difference between Milwaukee and Boston. Perhaps it has changed since then. My experience is in reality it hasn’t.
Regardless, base salaries are a poor measure of total compensation as someone else appropriately pointed out. Even the IRS is looking to measure total compensation by factoring in benefits to more accurately tax those individuals with more luxurious benefits.
I’m looking to hire two fresh-outs with no experience…starting salary $60k.
$60k ??? Good luck. Promising entry level (E1) software engineers are more like $85k to start here. I thought I remembered you were in Waltham? $60k would be tough to live on…
Why become a teacher (especially science or math) when you can go work in the private sector at almost twice your salary
Why do any profession if you can make more doing something else? People end up in their current job for many reasons, sometimes by choice. But we will have to disagree that the ratio is 2x for similar skills. People tend to CHOOSE teaching because of the personal satisfaction they get from it. Hard to put a price on that but as long as you can put a roof over your head and food on the table, it’s something that can be managed. The teachers around here are far from starving however. Their union is the only one refusing to accept concessions for health care that would put them into the collective GIC and save taxpayers millions while costing them only $10 co pays.
When I was a non-union truck driver, my dispatcher was free to leave me sitting for hours or even days waiting for a load assignment, all while I was unpaid. I could have used some union protection from the exploitation.
There are plenty of professions, truck driving included, that were left out of the labor movement. Waiters and bartenders get most of their pay from their customers’ tips, yet the manager, who only pays a small amount of their compensation, has the power to hire, fire, and boss them around, making them do things that don’t earn them tips. Company truck drivers get paid by the mile, but their bosses can leave them waiting for their next load for ridiculous amounts of time. The U.S. Government has had plenty of time to protect these workers, but they haven’t bothered. Unionizing is the only way to ensure these workers get treated with respect, and get paid properly for their time.
The level of expertise required to teach science or math at the high school level is less than that required to get a job doing science or math. What you DO need is the so-called “certificate” that says you’ve sat through various “education” courses. Your PhD really doesn’t count in the high school teaching world. Of course this is backwards.
It seems to me that the salary full time professors earn from their college or university is often a starting point. All my undergraduate professors had paying customers on the outside financing their research, and I’m sure that they pocketed some of the money for the good work they put in. I can’t do that as a professional in a private company. My employer prevents me from taking on consulting work.
“The level of expertise required to teach science or math at the high school level is less than that required to get a job doing science or math. What you DO need is the so-called “certificate” that says you’ve sat through various “education” courses. Your PhD really doesn’t count in the high school teaching world. Of course this is backwards.”
I disagree. Teachers are taught how to teach in college. They put what they learn about teaching to the test when they are student teachers. That way they are not completely new to the job as engineers are when they start work. We demand that teachers teach our children as soon as their first school year starts, and they are trained to do so. High school teachers deal more with subject mater than teaching methods, but they still need to know them. Early childhood education is almost all about teaching methods. How hard is 1+1? How hard is teaching someone how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide? If you think it’s easy, try teaching 20 or 30 6 year olds how to some time.
Well I have taught in college while getting my MS…and it’s NOT that easy. Especially if you have some intelligent kids.
Second…VERY VERY VERY few engineers have PHD’s…probably well less then 1%. In my 35+ years as an engineer and the hundreds of engineers I’ve worked with…I can count on one hand the number PHD’s I’ve worked with. The vast majority only a BS…probably less then 10% have a masters…
What you DO need is the so-called “certificate” that says you’ve sat through various “education” courses.
Thank you for proving my point…30 years ago to teach Science and Math at the high-school level you actually needed a degree in the subject. Now all you need is a teachers certificate…reason being is they can’t get qualified teachers with degrees in those subjects…and it’s MORE then just attending the classes…you actually have to pass the class. My brother is a high-school math teacher…One of the few that has a degree in Mathematics in his school district. Most of the rest have a degree in Math Teaching.
However, if we factor in all of the incentives, I made well over 300% of my previous base salary the first year I moved. It dropped to 200% the second and subsequent years.
And that’s extremely unusual. When I worked for GE in upstate NY I could have transferred to GE in Lynn MA with a cost of living increase of only 10%…That 300% you saw had a lot more to do with just changing jobs as opposed to anything else.
People end up in their current job for many reasons, sometimes by choice
I’m sure that’s one reason…but NOT the only one…and you can’t tell me you’ve NEVER known people who take a job based solely on salary. Now if we’re talking about a 10% pay differential then that’s one thing…but we’re talking about a 100% pay differential…Here in NH…it’s even more then 100%. As I said…when you have a college degree working in your field and you can’t afford to move out of your parents house because you don’t make enough…I’d say there’s a problem.
“It seems to me that the salary full time professors earn from their college or university is often a starting point”.
The university where I teach encourages us to bring in grant money. If we are successful, the money goes to buy us out of part of our class load, but our salary remains the same. Consulting work pays us directly if we do it on our own time. In this situation, the teaching load is not reduced.
At my institution the teaching majors take the same courses as the non-teaching majors. However, the teaching majors must also take a teaching methods course. There are other education courses teaching majors must take. When one graduates, he/she must have taken the prerequisite courses to be a licensed teacher. There are more than just education courses that a student must take to obtain a teacher’s license.
What institution is that?
What is a “teaching major”?
Well, you changed it from math or science to engineering, but that’s okay, even though there probably aren’t a lot of k-12 engineering classes.
"Second…VERY VERY VERY few engineers have PHD’s…probably well less then 1%. In my 35+ years as an engineer and the hundreds of engineers I’ve worked with…I can count on one hand the number PHD’s I’ve worked with. The vast majority only a BS…probably less then 10% have a masters… "
and the plural of anecdote is what? NOT DATA. There are engineers working today who never even went to college; sometimes they get caught. There are plenty of engineering phd’s out there.
Here’s where the engineering phd’s hang out:
“My brother is a high-school math teacher…One of the few that has a degree in Mathematics in his school district. Most of the rest have a degree in Math Teaching.”
Your brother is the guy I want teaching my (or anyone’s) kids.
The problem is you chose the wrong field. I wish there was such a thing as a “college do-over.”
Well, you changed it from math or science to engineering, but that’s okay, even though there probably aren’t a lot of k-12 engineering classes.
I hate to tell you this…but to be an engineer you need a background in Math and Science.
There are engineers working today who never even went to college; sometimes they get caught. There are plenty of engineering phd’s out there.
Phd’s are only a small fraction of the total engineers…they are NOT the majority…less then 1%. Now if you count the PHD’s in India…then the number goes up…but since we’re talking about jobs here in the US…it’s a moot point. I hire engineers all the time…I review thousands of resumes every year…very very very few have phd’s. I have no idea how you think there are many phd’s in this country.
http://www…7040a6822d
Wow you know how to use Google. Just because you can use google doesn’t mean you know anything about engineering.
Your brother is the guy I want teaching my (or anyone’s) kids.
You have to move Colorado. And that’s why my kids went to a private high-school. The math and science teachers in our school district are pitiful. NOT ONE has a degree in math or science. And doing so…Daughter graduated from MIT…Son full scholarship to Harvard (although he just gave it up to go to a Division II school out west to play baseball). My youngest will be going to that high-school next year.
The problem is you chose the wrong field. I wish there was such a thing as a “college do-over.”
So then who will be educating the kids??
I read you don’t care to compare. No fries this time.