Transmission failure: Who's fault is it?

Maintenance/Repairs
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41

Did any fluid foam out when it burned up? A good hard catastrophic burnout can get the fluid hot enough to foam out the vent and dipstick tube.

So it’s impossible to know how much fluid was really there before it burned out.

Add that to documentation showing it was checked two times before the failure, and however dubious the quickie lube place’s documentation may be, it is far more credible than the dealer pointing fingers at whoever they can.

Documents support the theory that it was checked. The accidental drain theory cannot be supported by anything but speculation, conjecture, finger pointing, and blamestorming. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m sure it happens. Just saying you held up your end, got paperwork and they’ve got squat and are not holding up their end.

To insinuate that they drained the transmission of 2.5 quarts of oil before realizing it was not the engine is simply them groping for anything they can come up with explain why they don’t want to honor their warranty.

The real reason they don’t want to honor their warranty is because it will cost them money. They will always blame someone else and try to weasel out of their warranty.

You are not a mechanic. You have documentation that says it was checked by pros (legal definition of a professional, not necessarily indicative of their skill level) 3k miles before failure, without any indication of a leak that would prompt a reasonable person to check it more frequently.

You paid good money for a warranty. You paid extra money to buy certified pre-owned from the dealer. Make them honor their warranty. If they refuse, talk to a lawyer.

Contrary to what others are implying, you don’t need to check your transmission fluid more often than at oil changes unless it’s demonstrated fluid loss. I run a fleet with 7 trucks that have had exactly 0 transmission failures due to low fluid level despite checking at 7500 mile intervals unless there is a leak. Why? If it’s not leaking, transmissions don’t use oil! And if it’s leaking, it will look like OJ Simpson’s been around. It’s messy and obvious.

I can tell you that transmissions fail all the time despite having the proper amount of fluid. Our failures are caused by pulling heavy trailers up and down steep grades day in and day out. Your failure was caused by driving in the Rocky Mountains in a vehicle that is notorious for having extremely high ATF temps due to marginal provision for fluid cooling. When your ATF reached 350F you probably left two foamy brown quarts on the road behind you.

42

OK I just did a quick check on the internet for a replacement plug and nothing came up, but it seems that this one does have one according to the other posters here, but when you checked the oil it wasn’t 3 quarts over, so the quick lube place would have re-drain the oil out, in which case why would they remove a different plug the second time? They generally only have one guy in the pit so he would have went to the same place to drain the oil out or at least would have know something wasn’t right. Now whether they would own up to it is a diffrent story.

43

I do. Not as often as I check my oil, but more often than I change it.

44

Here’s the update: Thanks to all excellent information and advice posted here, I at least knew the right questions to ask when I met with the service manager where the Highlander is being repaired here in Colorado. He had photos and good documentation of the condition of the transmission, along with a clear and documented description of how they determined the amount of ATF loss. The consensus here on the forum, and among the mechanics at Colorado dealership, seems to be that the car could not have gone more than 3,000 miles with insufficient ATF.

Meanwhile, the service manager at the Oregon dealership where the vehicle was purchased (with a Toyota Certified used vehicle power train warranty) is attempting to contact the rural Quik Lube business in Prineville where the oil change service was done 3,000 miles ago. The Quik Lube receipt shows no check of the ATF, but we can’t seem to get in touch with the business owner to confirm whether such a check is or is not part of their regular oil change service. The employee who answered the phone wouldn’t even reveal the name of the owner, so that’s not a good sign of a healthy, confident, professional business.

The car was serviced at the Oregon dealership about 8,000 miles ago, post-purchase, and their records show the ATF was flushed and refilled. That’s the only documentation that can be found that the ATF was checked since we bought the car. (We have only put 12,000 miles on it.)

So. As many of you pointed out, all we have is speculation that some the ATF fluid was drained in error. The only documentation we have that the fluid was checked was 8,000 miles ago, and no one has argued here that the vehicle could have gone that far with 2.5 quarts of ATF fluid missing. I’m sure the Prineville business is not going to step up and offer to pay for this repair, and again, as many of you pointed out, why should they? There is no record that they did anything wrong.

I know a lot of Highlander owners and have shared this story widely along with the advice (and some admonitions) many of you gave me in no uncertain terms: Learn to check the oil and other fluids yourself and always make sure your oil changes/fluid checks were done properly. For me, that also means asking questions and carefully reviewing the receipts at the time of the servicing, making notes at the time of the work of anything out of the ordinary. Perhaps a physical inspection of the guy in the pit for red splatters would be a good idea, too.

Thanks again for your comments and advice.

45

The part about the transmission being flushed/refilled 8k miles back could point a finger at someone although that’s not a definite thing.

I’m also not totally in agreement with the part about the car not going that far while being 2.5 quarts down on fluid.
A low fluid level could possible lead to problems that may not be noticeable to you and eventually this could snowball into something major. This could be caused by subtle fluid pressure problems due to some air being inhaled through the fluid pickup tube at times and this could be made worse by something that has not been mentioned.

You mention going 3000 miles up and down the Rocky Mountains. There’s such a thing called fluid slosh so while traveling on an upgrade or downgrade transmission fluid is going to slosh towards one end or the other. This can just make the air inhalation problem even worse and odds are you may not even notice it; especially going downhill with not as much of a load applied to the vehicle.

A guy running a Buick GN at the drag strip was suffering some faint shifting problems due to fluid slosh in the transmission pan. A Buick GN is a brutally fast car and the hard launches combined with a nose-high attitude on the car forced the fluid to the back of the pan which in turn affected the transmission. This was solved by the use of a deep pan holding more fluid and with baffles intalled to prevent the fluid from moving.

I would add that the fuel pump in a gas tank is designed the same way. It has a baffle to keep gasoline from moving away from the pump while cornering, going on the up and downgrades, etc.

Knowing the latest about the transmission flush kind of raises a red flag to me. Not only for the fact that the trans could have possibly been left low on fluid but the possibility of the flush itself causing a problem.
My son who lives in another city got the trans flushed (no pan drop) at a Ford dealer almost a year ago and immediately afterwards his Lincoln Aviator was simply undriveable due to transmission problems.

46

I can not imagine the need for checking the tranny fluid level every week or two since it did not appear to have a leak and it does not use fluid like an engine burns oil. However, checking it one time after any work is done under the hood is not a bad idea. I fly aircraft and I always am most nervous after an oil change or A&E inspection. That is the time of most concern. I had an oil change once and taxied out to top off the gas tank and while stopped at the pump saw oil dripping on the nose wheel. Checking found the A&E guy forgot to safety wire the filter in place and it had backed out just enough to start leaking. I would have been in the air for an hour probably before the engine had seized up and then what? I would have tried filling the tranny up with good TMC fluid and a bottle of Lubegard that I have found to be the best additive ever. It might have resurrected the tranny if the clutch plates and valves, etc. were not in real bad shape. Placing blame on the shops has been tried and believe me it is a very tough job. I did ask the Honda regional office when I had a bad Honda tranny and said I owned 2 Hondas and could they give me a break for good will. The guy said he could do 40% off and I accepted that and went ahead and got it replaced. Try it, it doesn’t hurt to ask!

47

When my dad’s jeep was leaking tranny fluid, it wouldn’t shift, so I would have expected to see that before damage.

48

Yes, that would make sense. But there was no slippage, no warning at all. But it clearly had been an issue for some time, at least according to the photos of the metal parts glommed onto the magnet and floating in the fluid.

49

Those kind of particles point to a serious problem that may or may not have come on suddenly. Without knowing the details of what’s going on inside the transmission (other than bad news) you might consider these points.

You bought this vehicle used and it was allegedly serviced before the sale, including the transmission. Those service claims should always be taken with a grain of salt, or two.
Consider asking the dealer for the paperwork on this service. It should be on file, both as to parts and labor, because both the parts dept. and the mechanic who did the work got paid by the Used Car Dept. They pay up just like a customer, although it’s a discounted rates, etc.

Not dropping a transmission pan and doing a flush only will not reveal things like this and it’s possible that this transmission could have had an ongoing issue which may have been erratic in nature and led to the original owner dumping the car. Since the dealer will put hardly any miles on the car it’s possible they may not have known a problem even existed. At some point this erratic problem decided to become a permanent one.

If I were in your shoes I’d ask the dealer for copies of the “service” that was performed by them before you bought the car. They should not object to this at all.

I would also point out that a few years ago one of my grown children bought a used vehicle (40k miles) without consulting me. The salesman at the Ford dealer told my son that the vehicle had been sent back to their service dept. and completely serviced including all new filters, trans fluid change, new spark plugs, coolant change, etc, etc.
Since my middle name is Cynical, I told him the next time he was visiting (which turned out to be 2 weeks later) I would look the car over. The outcome?
The only service done was an oil/filter change on the engine. Everything else was untouched from filters to fluids. So much for claims of this and that.

50

Thanks again for excellent advice. I have the paperwork on the dealer’s oil change done about 3,000 miles after we bought the car but I have not asked for the paperwork on the pre-sale mechanical work. I will do so.

Are you accepting applications from potential adoptees? I could use a “dad” like you! (I had one, but he passed away 25 years ago…). Maybe I should go for a brother as I expect we’re about the same age!

Thanks again!

51

No, but I’m tempted to put myself up for adoption at times. :slight_smile:

I’m a mechanic with 3 grown kids. As per the standard operating procedure they don’t listen to me before the fact but have no qualms about listening after the horses escaped the corral. :frowning:

52

Wow… this is terrible!

However, I believe you are NOT at fault though for other reasons/rationale.

The Toyota vehicle is an excellent driving machine, my compliments for your choice. It lacks one drawback, real-time engine management, as do other vehicles. Here lies the trade off, should a manufacturer put so much “operational” info on the dashboard a driver need be an “engineer” to use it? Most opt out. Therefore critical functions; IE: Oil for lubrication, antifreeze for coolant, and transmission fluids for gear shifting, are left to manual checks (dipsticks) and sensors (check engine) for proper functioning/response. Its not the best way to go but its cost effective. Perhaps you may remember (back-in-the-day), a motor vehicle had standard; oil pressure-engine temperature-voltage charge, guages? Now these guages are almost non existent. The burden of knowing if viable fluids are at proper levels for these major functions, is left to the operator or mechanic. See where I’m going with this… ?
You will undoubtedly have an “uphill battle” proving it was NOT human negligence, yourself or the service facility that contributed to the ultimate transmission failure. Either way the “mechanical factor” is not to blame for your Toyota’s breakdown. This undoubtedly is what Toyota is willing to address to your satisfaction, IF you can prove it. They know it is highly improbable, and their insurers will back them up on this.

Other options: Rebuild the transmission, buy a recovered transmission on same vehicle at collision recovery site, or go the cost of pursuing damages at service facility that failed to do a complete job. The latter will involve a good lawyer, and the vehicle will be unusable until such time there is a “negotiated remedy”.

Still, a Toyota is an excellent vehicle and when you do repair the transmission, it will undoubtedly give years of satisfactory performance.

53 
 Well, no, legally you are not obligated to do anything with your vehicle (other than maybe brakes and tires, if your state does inspections).  But under the terms of the warranty, it is no longer Toyota's problem if the transmission, coolant, engine oil, etc. were underfilled (unless Toyota themselves did it.)  This will be between you and the place in Oregon.  Quick-lube places do typically have insurance to cover this kind of thing; however, since it's been 3 months, it's unlikely you can demonstrate they underfilled it.  

 Have someone look CLOSELY for any transmission fluid leaks, usually under warranty it's still your responsbility to keep it filled but at least then there was already a fault with the transmission and it'd perhaps help your chances with Toyota.

 My mom's having the same problem right now; she got the tranny on her 2000 Deville serviced (replaced I think), it started to slip at warmup, when I finally checked the fluid I had to add 6 quarts to top it up!  (It holds a fairly ridiculous 12 quarts though.)  It seems fine now but has the torque converter slip code again (which is what it was replaced for to begin with).  I've read this only affects mileage by like 1MPG, but that car gained more like 5MPG.  We take this car on a lot of trips so it saved enough gas money to pay for the tranny at least.
54

I would also recommend looking at getting the transmission (replaced/rebuilt)from a company other the dealer. The dealer markups on these transmissions are very high. I have a Honda minivan (notorious for tranny problems) that would have cost me $5K+ at the dealership, but knew the owner of a shop that could do a rebuild for me. They were doing 4 other Honda minivans when my car was there (same tranny)! The complete job cost me less than half, and a 3 year 50,000 mile warranty (nationwide) was included in the price. They even showed me exactly what they were doing to my tranny (complete rebuild, torque converter, bands, clutch packs, solenoids, etc.).

You do have a good car though, and once you get this issue resolved, I agree you should see some years of trouble free operation.

55

Thanks! I did indeed do some comparison shopping and the dealer gave me a discount to match the range of prices I found. The car has been repaired and we are hoping, too, for years of trouble-free driving ahead!

56

It’s more likely that you had a leak and the kid at the quick lube didn’t tell you that they have been adding fluid when you come in for an oil change. 19 year olds at quick lubes often don’t mention leaks because instead of thanking them, owners will often point fingers which you appear to be doing now. It is early for a 2007 to leak. Learn how to check your fluids and do so every 3 months. Toyota built a reputation on “bulletproof quality”, so don’t hold your breath waiting for them to admit to a defect. Either resolve to involve an attorney or consider this a $5,000 car care lesson and move on.

57

Thanks for your note, Jimmy. I’ve already worked through the idea that I have to learn “$5,000 car care lesson” and pretty much rejected it, though. I’ve learned a $5,000 lesson but it is not about my car maintenance abilities!

We had never had our oil changed at the rural Oregon Quik Lube until we stopped there on a trip, so there’s no chance that “they have been adding fluid when you come in for an oil change.”

There was absolutely no evidence of a leak (as mentioned, it would have been pretty darn obvious on the constant new snow where the car was regularly parked), and I would have been thrilled to have it pointed out if there had been. Checking the fluids every three months would not have caught this problem either as it occurred less than three months after the oil change.

As I explained in my original post, it actually wasn’t me that pointed the finger at the Quik Lube place; I originally thought that since I had the car serviced at the proper time that the Toyota folks would have to step up. But their top technical reps and service managers “pointed the finger” in Quik Lube’s direction.

As always, I appreciate the thoughts offered; it helps me make sure I’ve really thought this through and considered all the possibilities.

58

After the metal in the pan business I tend to lean towards the transmission failure as not really being anyone’s fault so much as simply one of those things that happen.

I have 2 schools of thought on this.
One is that the transmission just suddenly decided to come unglued and may not have had a problem at all when you bought the vehicle.
Two is that the transmission had an ongoing problem (maybe the original owner) and this lingering problem finally bubbled to the surface.

An issue I do have is the part about the dealer servicing, or allegedly servicing, the transmission before you bought the car. If they did service it properly there should have been signs as per Number Two above.

I do disgree that a high price on a dealer transmission, or any other part, means the markup is through the roof. That may be perception but is not often reality.
When I worked for Subaru and got involved in a transmission that was totally trashed the owner of the car also thought he was being gouged by the dealer I worked for as the price of that transmission was a shade under 5000 dollars. The dealer COST on that transmission was 3800 dollars so the markup is not near as large as what someone may perceive it to be.

59

A digression: I bought my Subaru in 1973. I loved that car and it ran forever and ever. I knew I liked you! On the other hand, my 1985 Renault Alliance needed its own boyfriend to keep it running, so it had to go when he did…

Back on point: I’m making notes on all your points for the State Farm agent who is investigating our claim. I may direct him here, actually, now that I think about it!

60

Wow! You’re a glutton for punishment! A Renault preceded by a “wet sleever” Subaru.

If you never had head gasket problems with the Subaru then you’re in the distinct minority.

:slight_smile: