2 1/2 quarts low is significant. If its that low and there is no evidence of any kind of leak then it should go back to the oil change place that changed the fluid. A couple of questions. Did they flush it or just change the fluid?? Did they use Toyota fluid? Being an oil change place, I’m going to make a guess that they first flushed the trans and second since oil change places RARELY and I mean RARELY stock expensive OEM fluids, I’m willing to bet they put their cheap brand in there with an additive.
Now, on to the servicing. Automatic transmissions need to be serviced every 25-30k miles REGARDLESS of what the owners manual says. Transmission fluid along with other fluids in your vehicle need to be regularly checked. You said you pay someone to service your vehicle, that’s great but whether you pay someone or not the transmission fluid needs to be checked on a regular basis. If it would have been, you wouldn’t have gone 3000 miles with low fluid. This is an expensive lesson to learn.
Is it possible that the transmission leaked only while running? Wouldn’t an automatic transmission with a low fluid level display something such as slippage when first started each day? Did the OP see fluid drops on the area where the vehicle was parked? Was the transmission case wet with trans fluid in the area where it leaked or did the Toyota dealer mechanic conveniently forget to mention that? If adequate fluid in an automatic transmission is vital, then why is there no sensor and warning light to call the driver’s attention to that? Is it possible that the transmission leaked due to a seal failure which precipitated a more expensive failure for which Toyota has a convenient but questionable scapegoat on which to place the blame to avoid their duty? How would all of this play out if the transmission had no dipstick (our car has none) to check the fluid level? Even with a dipstick, some people are simply not inclined to work on cars. My mother, for example, would not know how to open the hood but she does many other things well. Should she not own a car?
Toyota should eat this one for good will where there is doubt about where to place fault.
To my knowledge, the oil change place did not put any fluid in the transmission. They certainly didn’t flush it–that would have been a charge on our bill. They would not have used Toyota fluid if they topped it off, but we don’t have a record of whether they topped it off. As noted earlier, a mechanic we visited at the time of breakdown said there was plenty of fluid, according to the dipstick, so even had I pulled the dipstick, it wouldn’t have shown me anything, right?
I appreciate your thoughts, but since we had driven the car fewer than 12,000 miles when this occurred–with two oil changes and (alleged) fluid checks during those 12,000 miles–I’m not feeling super guilty about neglecting to check this.
The expensive lesson should be that of the quickie-lube place. The fact that we have to pay for a lesson they will probably not learn is somewhat annoying.
So transman, I figure from your screen name that you have a lot of experience in this. This is my real question: Does the 3,000 miles/3 months time frame make sense to you IF the quickie-lube place inadvertently drained a couple of quarts of the transmission fluid?
I may be out in left field here, but let me see if I get this right: part of the dealer’s overall argument is that the fastlube place MIGHT have drained some transmission fluid–just because your trans was low on fluid & there’s no discernible leaks?
This is absolute speculation on their part! It can’t be used as part of an argument to not cover the tranny. Yeah, yeah–I agree with the others that it’s unwise to even go to a fastlube joint, but it has nothing to do with your or the dealer’s liability vis-a-vis this situation.
Do you have the actual terms of the power-train warranty? If so, read them through with a fine tooth comb. Boil down what’s your liability and what’s their’s. If you’ve fulfilled your part of the bargain, then they have to fix or replace the transmission.
I think this bill will fall onto your shoulders unless you have a receipt stating the fluid has been changed in recent memory.
Toyota Motor Co. is under no liability to cover this repair no matter if a fast lube was actually responsible or it was the dealer’s fault. TMC and the dealer are separate business entities and TMC has no legal obligation to cover one dime of a screwup even if the dealer did it; unless they want to out of the goodness of their hearts.
While it’s popular to think the factory owners manual is the final word on vehicle maintenance, that is not the case.
Transmission fluid should be changed every 30k or so miles as Transman states and transmission fluid is not the only item on the agenda that needs to be serviced more often than recommended. Spark plugs, filters, etc. should be serviced more frequently than recommended.
" Toyota says it’s not covered under the power train warranty because they found the fluid was about 2.5 quarts low."
I haven’t read all the posts, but have they legitimately proven that the transmission fluid was low? Or this is just an excuse?
I have seen Jiffy lubes drain the ATF by mistake on cars that have the drain plug, BUT when they open it and drain it, they drain the whole drainable volume which is at least 4 qts in your case. If they realized that this is the wrong fluid and stopped draining, then they would have topped it off too. If they drained the whole 4qts the transmission would have had issues within the first 100 miles. All the above is 1st hand experience of a friend with a 4runner that would not listen to me and used to go to these JL places.
I think with the above argument: 1) The Jiffy lube place is not at fault (I know, it happens).
2) The dealer is just looking for an excuse.
What kind of proof would be required to show that the fluid was low? I was not there under the hood when the Toyota service techs examined the car, so I’m not sure what to ask for. Any thoughts?
Alright, when I read your first post I was thinking that the oil change place actually serviced the trans. I doubt very highly that the oil change place just drained 2 1/2 quarts out of your transmission. Like OK4450 said, its more than likely going to fall back on you. Even though you pay people to service your vehicle, its still up to you to make sure the fluid level is where it should be. Somewhere along the line, 2 1/2 quarts of ATF came up missing. Somebody should have caught it sooner whether it be you or one of the people you pay to service it.
Okay thanks. I’m just not sure how I was supposed to catch it when the professional mechanic who looked at the car when the transmission failed said the dipstick showed the fluid level was fine.
But I agree with you. If the oil change place had dumped out 2 1/2 quarts, why WOULDN’T they have mentioned it right away and sold me more transmission fluid to replace it?
Toyota can’t void the warranty for failure to change the transmission fluid unless you exceed the mileage or time given in the owners manual. The can void the warranty if you let the fluid get low ,the same way they wouldn’t cover an engine that seized because of low oil or antifreeze. If you had one of the new vehicles with no dipstick you could make a case, but if you have a transmission dipstick they don’t have to prove how it got low. You would have to prove how it is someone elses fault and I don’t see how you can do that.
This is still a bit fuzzy to me. An independent guy says the fluid is fine after the transmission failed and after towing to the Toyota dealer they say the fluid level was 2.5 quarts down or possibly had been 2.5 quarts down?
Any chance this independent guy could have misread the stick?
A couple of possibilities here.
The transmission could have been legitimately down 2.5 quarts and the transmission may have APPEARED to shift fine to you but there’s a possibility due to the fluid being low that some air could be inhaled from the trans. pan. This could lead to subtle fluid pressure losses, which over time and mountains, can cause some degree of slipping which you may not notice. Eventually, the slight slipping gives way to total failure.
This vehicle was also purchased as a used unit and even with the “certified” designation all bets are off when it comes to reliability because no one, not even the dealer who sold you the vehicle, really knows how that vehicle was treated before they acquired it.
It could very well be that the previous owner thrashed the vehicle or suffered a problem with the transmission, dumped some additives or whatnot in there, and traded the vehicle off.
In spite of the reputation car dealers have for palming junk off on the public, most of the time it works the other way. The public has no qualms at all about stuffing engines, transmissions, axle assemblies, and every other compontent on a car with all kinds of substances to cover up a problem before dumping it on a dealer; who in turn sells it not knowing of the problem.
I still think based on being a used vehicle purchase, history of a fast lube being involved, and no hard evidence that anyone really did anything wrong you will be fighting a long hard battle to get someone else to pony up on this problem. Good luck anyway.
I believe that many people use both incorrect methods to check their transmission fluid,make incorrect conclusions about what they see on the stick and easily overfill the transmission. These mistakes are made by mechanics also.
I must ask, if you check it once (or twice,or three times) and the level is correct and nothing is leaking (no spots on the ground where you park) why should you have to check it weekly? it’s not like engine oil that gets burned and has a rate of consumption.
The more untrained people check and add fluid then the more overfilled transmissions we will be dealing with. Have a pro check it and pay attention for spots on the ground where you park
As anal as I am, I tend to agree with you on this. I check the fluid level, but not that often and so far I haven’t caught anything, unless they just changed the fluid in a shop. Transmissions don’t burn oil and if the level is low you have to really get under the car and see whats going on.
I could almost buy the story that the quick lube place mistakenly drained some of the transmission fluid, except for one thing. I haven?t seen a drain plug on a transmission for years, so unless this Toyota has one I just don?t buy it. I did a quick search for a transmission drain plug for your Toyota and didn’t find one.
If it doesn?t have a drain plug, that would mean the quick lube place started to remove the transmission pan, while I know they might not hire the brightest bulb in the pack it would be hard for me see how they could remove the multiple bolts dump out 2.5 quarts of transmission fluid, fill the truck with oil and not notice the car was overfilled by 3+ quarts of oil. Sorry I don?t buy it. You had a transmission leak. I don?t know if a leak would be covered under the warranty, but I would ask how the quick lube place would drain the fluid without a drain plug or evidence that the pan was removed.
I can’t speak for every make and model, including the one in question here, but in regards to the Asian built vehicles many of them use drain plugs on the transmission pan and have for many years. Subaru was even using them back in the mid/late 70s.
I’m of the opinion this model 4Runner does have a pan drain plug on the transmission.
Interesting thought! I was told that the transmission drain plug is located about three inches from the oil drain plug. Folks at both dealers have spontaneously told me that they have seen this happen multiple times with vehicles towed in after errors during oil changes.
Of course, that raises the question again of why the vehicles don’t have warning lights for transmission fluid issue if it’s so common.
I’m going out to the dealer’s service department tomorrow to have a long conversation with the service manager in charge of our repair. Thank you again to everyone for the questions you have raised; your comments have given me much to think about, and more important, to ask about and then verify the answers.
Re: “You would have to prove how it is someone elses fault and I don’t see how you can do that.”
LOL!
I guess I can show up looking exactly like the grandma/retired teacher that I am and see if they think I could have crawled under the car myself and drained that fluid! I have no problem playing the sweet old lady card as needed! So if Toyota didn’t do it and I didn’t do it–by golly, someone else must have!
