I wish people would do the right thing,I’ve seen bright eyed ,eager acolytes ruined by peers that didnt give a hoot.I always bow and consider the opinion of the old timer(the Oreintals had this right)experience usually trumps a lot of things,the Elders have expanded on the knowledge base,by trial and error and by doing and by down right common sense,my adolescent days are long behind me(strange the things you cant do now)
Db, I think you understood my statement correctly. It sounds like we disagree on this point. I don’t believe anybody could possibly pass just by guessing, I believe a base of knowledge is necessary.
Classroom instruction combined with intensive lab work in a fully capable lab is IMHO the best route by far, but like all the other options I don’t believe it should be mandatory. For those that grew up in (apprenticed?) dad’s garage, at least the ASE exams provide some measure of qualification. Schooling + ASE examination + an apprenticeship would be the ultimate, but even then it’s impossible to test integrity.
Ok4450, it’s true that when tested people only remember 20% of what they learned (if that), but that’s not the whole picture. Typical tests only test memory, not base knowledge. Someone who’s studied fuel systems, for example, might only remember 20% of what they’ve learned, but they also bring the fundamentals with them when confronted with a fuel system problem, and that makes them far better off than they would have been. You can forget details, but actual learning involves understanding, and that can’t be unlearned. Or forgotten. Your Subie instructor reminds me of a few teachers I’ve had (and known) over the years that are just regurgitating what’s in their books without any real foundation.
I took a certification test a few years back. It was one of the toughest tests I’ve taken. I could answer about 2/3 of the questions easily, but many of them were stumpers with several “correct” answers. For me, those questions required taking my subject knowledge and applying it to get the answer I thought the tester was looking for. Good news for me, I passed on the first try.
mountainbike
I’m just jerking your chain
Yes, the ASE exams are “merely” multiple-choice exams
You are certainly correct about the knowledge base. If you don’t have it, you’re either going to guess wrong, or you won’t even answer all the questions in the allotted amount of time
By the way, I don’t know if you’re aware of this . . . there are no more pencil-and-paper ase exams. During those exams, you literally had all evening, from let’s say 7PM until closing time, say 10PM, regardless of if you were taking just one exam
Now, it’s computer based testing, and it works out to about 90 seconds per question. It may initially sound like a lot of time, but it really isn’t. Because there are several questions that involve studying a wiring diagram, and then choosing the correct answer. On those, you’ll spend more than 90 seconds, so you’ll have to make up for it on other questions
Fortunately, you can “flag” any question you want and go back later. I’ve found it’s in my best interest to quickly read the question, pick an answer, and if there’s any doubt at all, just flag it for later review, as time permits
In regards to integrity, that’s a tough one. Sometimes, there’s not even a black and white answer, as to what constitutes integrity
for example, when your local tv news station decides to conduct a sting on local repair shops, it seems they ALWAYS mention brake fluid flushes as an example of no integrity, because it’s not needed, according to them
Customer has a 15 year old car, with obviously original brake fluid. Mechanic wants to sell a brake fluid flush, but tv station calls him a crook, with no integrity, because the owner’s manual and/or maintenance schedule doesn’t mention it. Not to mention that the brake lines/hoses aren’t leaking, and the car still stops. What could possibly be wrong with the brake fluid, the news station asks . . .
Another example . . . customer’s brake pedal is kicking. The mechanic measures significant runout on the front rotors. They’re well above discard thickness, but the mechanic wants to play it safe and replace front rotors and pads. The mechanic, according to some, has no integrity, because he’s throwing out rotors that are “still legal”
Another example . . . the customer at the independent sees a situation that MIGHT be covered under an manufacturer’s warranty, even though the car is well past the new car warranty period. He’s never seen this car or the customer before, and he doesn’t have the time to look into it.
I might point out something . . . an independent shop is under NO obligation to point out something which might be covered by the manufacturer’s warranty. He can not get in trouble for failing to open his mouth.
If he wants to use up his own time . . . for no pay . . . and confirm that the manufacturer will pay for it, he can notify the customer, and send them to the dealer. So they may “lose the sale”
If the customer is nice, they will return with donuts, and will start getting the car regularly serviced at Joe’s independent garage, because he was a nice guy
If the customer is your average guy, he’ll quickly forget the nice guys working at Joe’s garage
If Joe doesn’t send the customer to the dealer, the tv news station will almost certainly say he has no integrity
Lack of knowledge can lead to charges of low/no integrity
About 5 or so years ago one of the local TV stations did a story about a woman who was “ripped off” on an auto repair.
She was an older black woman with a nasty looking 20 year old Ford Taurus and the automatic transmission had failed. (Likely due to never being serviced.)
She stated that the transmission was replaced by this crook and he would not stand behind the repair when the transmission failed shortly afterwards.
The reporter showed up at this shop and it was an older metal building in the sticks with no sign and a 60 something year old black man doing work on his own. He did not come across as very articulate and I felt sorry as hxxx for the guy while he was trying to explain it and obviously being very nervous in front of a camera.
The upshot was the woman did not want to spend money on a reman trans and insisted on a high miles used transmission. She was told there was no guarantee but of course she never told the TV station any of this.
So the report ends with no mention ever again of a resolution and the old man was tarnished in front of everyone with most people probably thinking the guy is a crook.
TSM- Well, I’m living in 2015 not 1972.
That’s 40+ years of additional wear and tear over what you are reminiscing about.
Personal friends and family have owned planes that required structural repairs and those were from the 60s onward with (obviously) much less severe usage. The articles I cited were simply to provide references. If you read them, they speak directly to the well known design limitations (design life) and need for constant upkeep even relating to the structural components making up the airframe. In short, I’m not buying your story…
Fair enough.
But if you think DC3s still in service in Columbia and third world countries that have lost track of their flight hours are routinely having their airframes torn apart and rebuilt, you’re wrong.
If you think depot routinely tears apart the airframes on B52s, you’re also wrong. They do NDI on them, and if there’s a fatigue fracture the part is replaced, but routinely tearing the airframes down is just plain not happening. Never has, never will. And scheduled depot maintenance is routinely done at the aircraft’s assigned base, not at Tinker.
Whether or not you choose to accept that is your choice.
For the record, its is not my belief that any shop will (or should) go looking for compliance with manufacturer D.O.T. requirements. The D.O.T. is where the regulations actually reside. My point is that emissions system and components failures will in modern cars manifest themselves as operating problems or in a chronic CEL light and get addressed. The miniscule amount that does not will not affect the environment any more than a single cow fart. IMHO the current system of yearly emissions checks for passenger cars is totally nonproductive except to generate revenue for the state coffers. Fortunately, most states aren’t signed on to this “hidden tax”. I call it a “hidden tax” because it’s mandated by the government (state or federal via the EPA), the revenues go into the state’s general fund, and there’s a mandated amount of payment. Just like a true tax.
As regards the news… well, they’ve been caught with their “pants down” more than once. Most of the talking heads just ramble whatever’s on the cue cards, with no knowledge about the subject. The ones that do have more control, like Brian Williams… well, need I say more? This thread would get way too ling if I started itemizing all the times the media was caught lying. Since Brian Williams is still employed by and will be a “breaking news anchorman” for NBC, I can only assume that honesty and integrity isn’t very important to the NBC news executives. I doubt if their competitors are any better.
I’ll offer an opinion . . .
I prefer the idea of OBD2 plug-in tests, versus nothing at all
I know there are some guys out there, that would prefer the check engine light lit, poorly running engine, belching smoke, and NO test at all
But I’m not one of them
There’s no question that a whole lot of people support both sides of the issue. And both sides have valid arguments to support their beliefs.
Ultimately, I think EVs are going to make the argument moot. It’ll take a few more years and another leap in battery evolution, but I think the handwriting is already on the wall. I’m an EV advocate. I remain amazed at how much people’s perceptions of EVs have changed these past five years with the evolution of Tesla’s truly usable (albeit expensive) S model. I don’t think anybody had ever thought there’d be a luxury EV, especially one with a range sufficient to be a daily driver for most folks. Everyone thought EVs could only be ping pong balls with little motors and even smaller range. Only Elon Musk saw the real future.
I’ll go off-topic . . .
From what I’ve seen of Elon Musk, I can’t stand
I think if I met him, I would take an INSTANT dislike to him
he’s got some really great ideas, but not all geniuses are likable
From what I hear, Steve Jobs was 100% intolerable to work for/be around
@db,never judge a book by its cover,if you got to know the Chap and bent your elbow with Him,you may find theres a lot to like,but on the other hand,this type of persona,may be almost unapproachable,as you have alluded to.
I have to agree with TSM,theres a revolution coming with EVs,but whether its good for the economy or not,is debateable.
You don’t build a multi Billion dollar empire from scratch by being a nice guy.
Most of these guys are extremely demanding, and also pigheaded, but also leaders. The world is full of pretend managers who got their jobs purely through politics, have no idea what they’re doing but cover up with cruelty and meanness. I know some. Guys like Musk and Jobs forge headlong into things and take people with them. And if these people perform they reward them royally. The fake managers order people to do things that they themselves couldn’t do, go hide somewhere, and crucify the peon if they can’t accomplish the impossible. I know someone who has repeatedly over the years fired people from a specific job that was impossible without ever being willing to sit and look at what’s wrong with the process and what can be done to change it. This person also refuses to accept recommendations… most of which this person doesn’t even understand… or care to.
It’s the leaders in the world that drive change, not the managers. And real leaders are tough to work for.
If they were get-along-guys, they would work for someone else. Running a business is extremely difficult and takes all of your time to get off the ground. Anyone that undertakes such a venture has to be dedicated to it, and intolerance of a boss is one of the reasons to start your own company.
I’m happy working for somebody else
However, I have every right to hate Elon Musk
Come to think of it, I hate Bob Lutz even more . . . he’s REALLY despicable
I don’t care how smart he is, I don’t care how much of a leader he is
I may be in the minority, but I’m not sold on Elon Musk. My opinion is that he pushes a lot of grandiose ideas without really ever perfecting any one of them; with the main intent to keep venture capital and taxpayer funds flowing in.
Musk says he’s going to colonize Mars and people have already signed up for it. If Musk is on the first ship headed to Mars and radios back a million miles out to say things are looking good then I’ll buy into what he says.
Speaking of extra-terrestial vehicles, with the moon’s lack of atmosphere will the lunar four-wheel buggy the astronauts left behind on the moon rust?
Carolyn, please note my question is about self propelled wheeled transport vehicle, a moon dune buggy.
:-))
Fortunately, most people are happier working for someone else.
And yup, I support your right to hate Elon Musk. And Bob Lutz.
I’m not a Bob Lutz fan myself. He worked for all of the “big three” and I cannot see where he did anything but cause problems. I wouldn’t call him a leader. I’d call him a professional manager with a terrible track record.
I did think Lutz’s comment about the Aztek was funny when he took over GM. He said he tried to find out who gave the green light on the Aztek and no one would admit to it. He said that if he had found out some heads were going to roll.
Funny; as much as the Aztek has been vilified as the most hideous car ever built they’re really not bad now in comparison to some of the rolling abominations being placed on the public roadways.
Nissan Juke for one. The story the other day was that Juke sales are in the tank so it could be assumed that every legally blind person who wanted a Juke based on the name has one.
Maybe Lutz’s problem was inheriting a mess and bringing a Marine officer mindset into the job…
I guess it’s not fair to compare Bob Lutz to Elon Musk
While Bob Lutz certainly did run huge corporations, as far as I know, he didn’t start any of them
As mentioned, Elon Musk created something out of nothing
I was just mentioning both of them, because they’re two very well known car guys who have a lot of influence
As far as the Aztek is concerned, yeah, it’s an ugly car. But it’s just one of many, over the years. Personally, I think the Juke is the uglier of the two