The myth of German engineering

Maintenance/Repairs
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21

I know my story is not related to BMW, but since your title is German engineering, my story is related to German engineering: in Jan 2008, my wife was driving our 2001 Mercedes E430 sedan when suddenly the accelerator pedal would not respond such that the car would not accelerate. Luckily, she was on a quiet city street so that she could coast off to the side and stop without any incidence. Later the Mercedes dealer, Sangera Automotive Group, found that the accelerator pedal cable was broken.

The car has only 40,000 miles on it and it was always parked in a garage. We follow all the scheduled services. It is scary to think what if this happened on a congested highway in LA, or when going up a steep hill in SF.

Anyone has similar experience with broken accelereator cable?

22

The Mazda RX-8 is a neat little car IMHO and by doing a little footwork you may be able to find one in the price range you mention. An example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2004-MAZDA-RX-8-ROOF-LEATHER-6-spd-XTRA-CLEAN-LOW-MILES_W0QQitemZ120225971361QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120225971361

I still don’t buy this bit about a European car only makes high mileage if money is poured into it constantly. The same things said about BMW have also been said about SAAB.
As an ex-SAAB dealer tech, and multi-SAAB owner, we were never deluged with complaints about a SAAB being a lemon. Engine/transmission work is near non-existent and any out of the ordinary complaints are no worse than any on Honda, Toyota, or anything else.
There was no line of people parading through the shop complaining about repeated problems. Most work was maintenance related with the errant clutch slave cylinder, water pump, etc. being the only things out of the norm.

Also don’t buy the bit about BMW, SAAB, Benz, etc. fuel injection being problematic. It’s the same system used on Asian cars. Matter of fact (and the memory is fuzzy due to the this happening quite a while back) it seems to me that Bosch brought suit against all of the Asian car makers for pirating the FI design. In a nutshell, fuel injectors, etc. are built under license from Bosch.

The Germans have always been excellent engineers and one of the best examples of how meticulous they are involves the restoration of a WWII German fighter plane; a BF-109. While restoring the engine the crankshaft (which was as new) was sent to Rolls Royce for an examination. The comment from RR was “guard the crankshaft with your life because it’s doubtful we could even make one of these today”. And this in the age of CNC mills and lathes.

23

You might find it interesting to read the maintenance schedule on the BMW as mileage exceeds 60,000mi. Many European cars include such procedures as “remove the head, remove the valves and camshaft, inspect and repair and/or replace as necessary.” This would be unheard of on a domestic or a Japanese vehicle. And the flat rate times for similar work is much greater on most European models.

24

I must have missed that article, but I did own a Ford Maverick. It seemed to me that the engine in mine, a 6 cylinder 250 cubic inch displacement, wasn’t really technically advanced even for the early 1970’s. I had trouble with the valve stem seals, and even after replacement, the car used about a quart of oil every 1200 miles. The bushings in the front suspension were “permanently” lubricated. To replace these bushings, one either had to really tear apart the front suspension, or cut holes in the fender liner from the engine side and put in grease fittings. I took the latter approach. The car was reliable and easy to repair. However, the handling wasn’t great, and it rode like a wheelbarrow. When I found I was spending more on Preparation-H than on upkeep for the Maverick, I traded it in.

25

Well, I’ve looked for a maintenance schedule that states the “head must be removed…” and I can find nothing. Can you provide a link as to where you found this info? I got tired of searching. The ones I found went up to 200k miles and removal of the head was never mentioned.

I’ve worked for European car dealers (VW, SAAB, Fiat,) and have never seen nor heard of such a thing.

You cannot compare the flat rate of one car against another. “Similar” does not mean exactly. Just because 2 different makes of cars have alternator belts does not mean the process of changing them is the same.

26

I wouldn’t classify the RX-8 as a 4-door car, despite those little suicide doors. A GT coupe is really more like it. The folks in the back will have a hard time getting in and out of the car. If you like it, that’s fine. But it isn’t a 4-door sedan and it’s no roomier than your Mustang.

There are a lot of cars that might meet your requirements. Does it have to be rear wheel drive, or will front wheel drive do? You won’t notice a difference on the street, since you can’t race there anyway. You describe an Accord as the car you want, but your examples aren’t even close. Since you mentioned the RX-8, look at the Mazda3 and Mazda6 and see if you could be happy with either. If not, maybe you should reconsider the sedan thing.

27

I drive a 2000 BMW 323i with 128k miles on it. I absolutely adore my car. So here is what I think. You cannot really compare a BMW and a Toyota/Honda/Hyundai/Mazda in any sense. BMW engines are rock solid, the supporting systems are finicky. If you want to know exactly what to expect to fail on this car, how much it will cost at the dealer or an independent car shop, there are a million and a half posts on the 1999-2005 BMW 3 series owners/lovers forum to search through for information(www.e46fanatics.com).

Here are some of the things you may expect on a car this mileage, or to check out before you buy:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=725485
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195771

Now, before you get scared looking at those, just remember, out of the millions of owners of these cars, these are the most common problems, not every car has those problems, or will have those problems, but give you an idea of what to check.

They advocate finding a car repair shop you trust, doing work yourself with the tons of DIY information and step by step guides they provide, and have detailed maintenance suggestions if you think BMW’s maint. schedule is optimistic.

If you are looking for support from a community for a car, you’d be hard pressed to find a brand or model of car with such a support structure on the web.

So if you are as scared of hard plastic, creaks and groans, uninspired driving, test drive the BMW, check its history and records, and get it checked out. Then buy it cause just like the [cadillac] commercial says, “when you turn your car on, does it return the favor?”, and I think the bmw will.

28

I know 3 people who own BMW’s…Two had problems with them all the time…And the other one…the car was a dream for 10 years and well over 200k miles. The two who had problems were also very very agressive drivers. The one who kept his BMW for 10 years was a normal not very agressive driver.

It may be that cars like BMW have a poor reputation because of the way people drive them. I really don’t know. I always found them to be too expensive for what you get. I found feature for feature the Japanese cars to be a far better value.

29

In reality, cars are so homogenized it’s more appropriate to discuss cars “marketed” by one brand or another…are we so into Lotus we forget some models have a Corolla engine. Or that, as stated so many of the parts are subcontracted from common sources.

BMW is a marquis that impressive some enough to believe what they want to believe…that a Lexus is better than a Toyota and Acura is worth the the extra money over a Honda or the Saabaru 9-2; just proves the point of how successful a car becomes depends as much on marketing as it does manufacturing.

30

Never compare the cost of repairing a BMW to a Honda or Toyota.

An Acura IS a Honda and a Lexus IS a Toyota, just like a Lincoln is a Ford and a Chevy is a GM vehicle. Reliability for Acuras and Hondas will be the same, as will Lexus and Toyota. Cars made under the same parent company will have ideltical quality control procedures and in most cases, the only difference between models will be optional equipment.

31

My feeling is that the more money you spend on a car, the more you will ultimately end up losing. If you spend $40,000 on a BMW 3-Series instead of $25,000 on a Honda Accord, you will lose more on the BMW. And it isn’t even all wrapped up in reliability. The BMW will also incur higher insurance costs, and I think their parts will cost more. Properly maintained, the two vehicles probably don’t differ that much in their reliability, but over a 10 year period, and largely as a result of initial and repair costs, the Honda will cost a lot less to operate.

The old BMW ads used to tout resale values, but I think even that’s a myth.

Now, there are exceptions to my “The more you spend, the more you’ll lose” axiom… If you buy a 1990 Fox Body Mustang, or a 1986 Corvette, or a 1988 BMW, chances are those cars are all done losing money, and it’s nothing but up from here. The common thread: These were desirable, expensive cars when they were new, so few were able to buy them… A lot of us are now in position to buy that 1988 911 we could not afford in 1988.

One thing that amazes me is how reliable cars have become. I turned 16 in 1974, and basically EVERYTHING was junk back then. There were very few exceptions, but it’s worth noting that German cars, in 1974, were about as good as it got.

Fast-forward to about 1990, and it seems like car companies started turning the corner right about then. I credit electronics with those advances.

Now, in 2008, there just aren’t as many awful cars as there were in 1974. When I bought my first car, in 1978, I got a 1976 Corolla. In retrospect, that was a terrible car, but compared with what I could afford, it was way better than a Vega or a Pinto, and I needed room, reliability and decent mileage. In relative terms, I got all that.

The bottom-line for me is that the current BMWs are certainly desirable enough to where if you can afford the initial cost, as well as the shock of higher repair costs, you won’t lose much in reliability compared with your neighbor’s Accord.

To me, it’s not worth it. But that’s just me. I now prefer Japanese cars. We may have a common point, though: Maybe you can find the BMW of your dreams on Carmax. I recently looked at various Japanese cars I can picture myself driving, and there are some great deals there.

32

Well, if you are a college student who will soon be graduating, I would like to recommend that you select something smaller and more economical. I would like to see you in a fuel efficient mid-sized car that you can realistically pay for in less than three years. It is so important that you start saving for retirement at a young age so that your retirement fund will grow and compound over the next 40 years. The difference between retiring in luxury and having to work into retirement age is often determined by how early you start saving for retirement. Will you be happy with something that isn’t a luxury car or a sports car? Maybe not. An important lesson we should learn from the baby boomer generation is that if you struggle and make sacrifices to save at a young age, you can buy all the toys you want later, and that doesn’t mean you wait until you are too old to appreciate the sport cars and luxuries. That means you might buy an economical mid-sized car now so that you can afford a new BMW by the time you are 30. Who knows, you might find that you like the sporty versions of economy cars, like a Toyota Corolla S or a Honda Civic Si. If you do, the money you save as a young college graduate can greatly enhance your quality of life in the future.

In terms of car recommendations this all means that I think you should look for a 2000-2002 Honda Civic Si. Who knows, you might even want to keep it after the loan is paid off.

33

Thanks for the advice, but just so you know, I’ve actually been planning this out for a while now. The thing is, I’ve been saving up for this car for a while (knowing that my brother would soon join me in college), and I also just got a new job. The dollar amount I posted is based on having the new job, and thereby being able to pay off the loan in two years without breaking my bank account.

And as far as saving for retirement goes - that’s also a benefit of the new job; I plan to start putting into a Roth IRA in about 3 months (which is when the company I’m working for will start matching).

But I honestly do appreciate the advice. Everyone on this forum has been extensively helpful and I’m very thankful at how different this particular forum is than a lot of others online.

34

And a Fit is a Honda, A Yaris is a Toyota. They are significantly less expensive to repair for an equivalent problem compared to a BMW. Allowing them in the comparison skews the cost lower for Toyota or Honda. BTW, Lexus is the most reliable car brand around along with Buick. Toyota isn’t even close. It’s barely in the top 10.

35

A top end job was SOP at 5000 (five thousand) miles on British cars in the 1970s. I’ve never heard of it anywhere else, either.

36

Many European cars include such procedures as “remove the head, remove the valves and camshaft, inspect and repair and/or replace as necessary.”

That’s silly, do you have an example of any modern car that includes removing the head for inspection in the maintenance schedule?

37

The OP asked about reliability ratings of a BMW 3 series, so…

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?year=2001&make=BMW&model=3-Series&pkw=PI&vendor=Paid+Inclusion&OCID=iSEMPI

I would not consider an “occassional” failing of a cam sensor a serious problem nor would I consider the (red) mark for coil failures as being too drastic since those coil failures can be caused by an owner neglecting spark plugs, driving around for months (or years) with the CEL on, etc.

38

In other words, more expensive cars cost more.

39

The biggest complain I have about you “damn” BMW owners, is your selfishness. I have a good friend with an AWD 3 series and he’ll let me take his sailboat, his Outback, uses his house for a party, and throw in his wife. But he has NEVER offered to let me drive his BMW. What is it with you guys ?

40

It is not true for any Mercedes, BMW or VW/Porsche/Audi made in the last 40 yeaes.
I’m not sure what he’s talking about, but I’d like to know for my reference.

As the heading says “Myth of German Engineering”. There are a lot of people who spread “Myths” that have never owned or worked on the German cars.
They do read Consumers Reports though, I guess.

Benzman