Last year I did a project in Washington state and was given a brand new Explorer as a job car. Pleased to say only a few things were wrong, reflecting the increased emphasis Ford is puttiing on quality control. At the same time a colleague of mine got a new Ford Fusion, and it came delivered dirty and with a large gash across the dashboard padding. It took 3 months for the dealer to obtain new padding and have their shop fix it. The gash was probably caused during trnasportation or by the dealer. In any case, they expected him to accept delivery.
I agree with Mike. Some of those people associated with the car makers are not to be trusted at all. Just a few random examples…
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11371
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/cases/civil/caa/amerhonda.html
TOYOTA DEFECT DAMAGE CONTROL REPORTED BY AUTO NEWS
According to a July 24 report in Automotive News, Toyota Motor Corp. has embarked on a strenuous campaign to “defend its reputation.” The company, shaken by a series of recent safety recalls and a criminal investigation in Japan, is “reorganizing, reviewing its quality processes, stepping up its review of aging vehicles’ service records and urging customers to report any problems to their dealers.
As a symbolic first step, Toyota executives are apologizing repeatedly.”
Nissan Minivans. $200,000,000 estimated total recovery for 33,000 owners of 1987-90 Nissan minivans which were the subject of three recalls because of engine failures and fires before Alexander Hawes, LLP filed suit in April 1993. On February 2, 1994, one week before the hearing on plaintiff s motion to certify a national class action, Nissan negotiated a settlement of the class action, stipulated to the certification of a national class, and resolved a federal investigation by the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration by voluntarily agreeing to an unprecedented buy back of 33,000 vans at fair market value [$5,000 to $7,000]. Johnson v. Nissan Motor Company Inc., U.S.A., Santa Clara County Superior Court No. 730558. Wall Street Journal, February 4, 1994, page A2. San Jose Mercury, C1, San Francisco Chronicle, A5.
Guess rose colored glasses can be pretty selective if need be.
Who is whining?
If the principle was applied correctly, you would have no reason to notice, and you probably wouldn’t notice unless you completely disassembled each vehicle and then reassembled them. At that point, you might notice a bolt or two missing (and you might blame yourself), that is, if you had been one of the few people to get one of these fine vehicles.
If GM and Chrysler only left bolts missing from 1 out of 1,000 vehicles, you would probably never have bought one of these fine cars. However, when it comes to automotive quality, I don’t think 99.9% is good enough, simply because of the incredibly large amount of vehicles manufactured.
-At 99.9% effectiveness 12 babies will be given to the wrong parents each day.*
-At 99.9% effectiveness 22,000 checks would be deducted from the wrong checking accounts each year.*
-At 99.9% effectiveness 2 planes per day would fail to land safely at O’Hare International Airport.*
In my opinion, 99.9% isn’t good enough. The fact that you never personally had a problem doesn’t prove anything. It only suggests the odds were in your favor.
*“Is 99.9% Good Enough?” Training (March 1991), p. 38. See also, J. Petty, “When Near Enough Is Not Good Enough,” Australian CPA (May 2000), pp. 34-35.
Do I Detect A Bias, Here?
I don’t think so. I think we can all acknowledge Ford and GM have improved quality. With the exception of you, every Chrysler owner I have known was dissatisfied with his Chrysler product. The last time my sister came to visit, the trim around the windshield of her Chrysler minivan came lose. Another friend of mine had a Chrysler Concord and parts literally fell off of it, both interior and exterior. On the other hand, I have profound respect for the quality of GM’s trucks and full sized vans.
So, if I were bashing all three domestic manufacturers indiscriminately, I would agree that there might be some bias. However, in this case, I calls it as I sees it.
I’m Sorry I Can’t Agree With Big 3 Bashing. I Just Have Not Found A Better Car Value
Dollar for dollar, I’ll take a GM or Dodge. My 97 Intrepid 3.5 has over 235,000 miles. It doesn’t use oil. There are no codes. I have done only necessary maintenance (oil changes at 5,000, 2 timing belts, 2 water pumps, ball joints, front brake pads, and tires) not like all the stuff suggested by the manufacturer. That’s part of the value. “Repairs” on this car total less than $600 (upper intake gasket and EGR vave). It needs hood struts to hold the hood up. The headlights have always stunk, even with my added driving lights. I have no A/C (receiver drier split open). Everything else works as it should!
The car is very roomy. I care 8 foot+ building materials inside. It handles very predicably, traction is excellent, even in our ridiculous winters 200+ inches of snow, ice freezing rain) twenty miles from a town. Heat and defrost are outstanding. It has a very tight turning radius. I get 27 mpg with 214 hp. It has never failed to start right up.
I would buy another of these new in a second. I have a Toyota, dealer twenty miles away. They suck. They have a very bad reputation here. I have a Chevrolet, Buick dealer and a Cadillac, Pontiac, GMC dealer twenty miles away. Ford, Jeep is twenty miles. Dodge is 30 miles. That’s it. The nest nearest dealer of any kind, including all the rice burners, is over 100 miles one way.
I don’t get very good (actually none) support from car companies other than Big 3.
But I don’t mind. I have no use for them.
This is just one example chosen from our six Big 3 cars. The others have similarly boring reliability and cost saving histories.
America, What A Country!
SOME OF US actually want to see the Big three thrive to the point of being the top three sellers of autos in the WORLD. SOME OF US remember when they were…when they actually did build the BEST cars that the average person could buy. I remember some of the Toyotas from the 60’s. They were no where near the quality of a Chevy. I TRUELY WANT TO BELIEVE that the Big-3 can do it. But as MB pointed out…the companies are no longer run by car guys…but by bean counters.
Every 10 you hear the stories of the NEW Accord or Camry killer from the Big-3. How much better it’s built and we all should buy it. The Acclaim was the first back in the 80’s…WHAT A JOKE that car was. Junk after 100k miles. Then in the 90’s it was the Taurus…Based on several relatives and friends who’ve owned them…AGAIN a joke…Now it’s the Malibu…All I can say is WE’LL SEE.
Dollar for dollar, I’ll take a GM or Dodge.
Oh there’s no QUESTION…Toyota/Honda or Nissan…especially when you keep them over 200k miles. You’re Intrepid is an anomaly. Even my brother-in-law who’s a retired Chryco plant manager thought this vehicle was a piece of crap. It was one of his Executive cars he got. He said he was lucky all maintenance was covered by Chryco. For the year he drove it, it spent 2-3 months in the shop. This is another of the Accord killers that fell far short.
Reminds me of my last assignment in Nigeria, a country plagued with AIDS. Our office manager proudly proclaimed that AIDS was not a problem in Nigeria because “she did not have it!”
If the local Toyota dealership doesn’t provide good customer service, they don’t deserve your business.
Based on what you have written, I think you have made the right choice for you. As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. I am glad there are cars on the market that meet your needs.
The only problem I currently have with bailing out Chrysler is that the company was recently acquired by a private equity firm. They only bought Chrysler because they wanted their financial car loan business. Their plan was to sell off the manufacturing business, but with the recent downturn, nobody wants to buy them. Perhaps if they want to keep customers like you, they should sell the manufacturing business to GM. However, giving a government loan to a company so it can continue to make cars even though it really doesn’t want to is a bad idea.
You continue to insinuate that any Big 3 car that makes it 200k miles is an anomaly. That’s not the case and you’re totally uninformed about vehicles you’ve stated you have not owned in 30 years.
What I would like to hear is your comment about the links I posted above (and that’s barely scraping the surface).
You started this thread over a GM employee talking about missing screws or bolts; well, what about the situations I linked to?
Since you’re a Nissan guy I threw a few of those in there; along with the prior one about Nissan not tightening transmission mainshaft nuts properly which then led to transmission lockups.
If the GM employee you mentioned was not properly tightening mainshaft nuts which then led to transmission lockups on a Chevy truck, your reaction would be…???
If the local Toyota dealership doesn’t provide good customer service, they don’t deserve your business.
I rarely if EVER go to the dealer for ANYTHING. In the past 5 vehicles we’ve owned I’ve NEVER had to bring the vehicle back for any kind of warranty service what-so-ever. There was a recall on my wifes 96 Accord which we brought in. All they did was replaced the sparkplugs. So I can’t really say how good the service is.
You continue to insinuate that any Big 3 car that makes it 200k miles is an anomaly. That’s not the case and you’re totally uninformed about vehicles you’ve stated you have not owned in 30 years.
That’s YOUR opinion based on YOUR observation. Not MY opinion based on MY observation…nor is it the rest of the WORLDS opinion.
You started this thread over a GM employee talking about missing screws or bolts; well, what about the situations I linked to?
You keep missing the point…NEVER EVER did I say that Toyota/Nissn or Honda make PERFECT VEHICLES ALL THE TIME. Please show me where you thought I made such a statement. What I HAVE said over and over again…They do make BETTER vehicles a LOT more times then GM/Ford or Chryco has. And the Big-3 are VERY VERY slow to change. Every time I bring up GM’s Intake manifold problme…you COMPLETELY IGNORE it saying that’s old news…I keep bringing it up because it’s the BEST example of how GM has screwed up. Nothing Toyota/Nissan or Honda has made has had a problem like that for as LONG as GM has. How many years and how many vehicles were effected by this screw up??? 10+ years and MILLIONS of vehicles.
What gets me so upset is that I know for a FACT GM Ford and Chryco can build better cars. They choose NOT to. They’ve chosen higher profits over customer satisfaction. They’ve caused the problem they’re in…no one else. They’ve lost loyal customers like me…and I WON’T go back until they PROVE to me they’re building reliable vehicles again. I’m waiting patiently.
Just a few people besides me who thing that the Big-3 have a ways to go.
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/101636/article.html
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/10/car-reliability.html
That’s nice, but what does it prove?
I am at a loss as to why you responded to my reply to C.S.A…and as to what point you are making.
Thanks, mountainbike. After we had all the kinks worked out of this "do it yourself " car kit, we enjoyed driving it for the next 13 years. The message here is that today’s buyers expect few, if any defects and almost no warranty or recall issues.
When I was consulting in Malaysia I had a chance to do some work with the local car company, Proton which actually builds a totally local car. The assembly defects were running 2.5% which is good considering most European companies rarely achieve 2%, which was Proton’s goal. Assembly defects are caught in nthe factory, and corrcted before the car is shipped. In the past Detroit just shipped the cars and relied on the dealer to make the correction. A very expensive way to control quality.
The real problem at Proton, however, was the design quality of the components. Since the car was a local design with local components,there were many premature components failures and some design flaws like leaking taillights. But, all in all, a commendable effort for a country that gained independence from Britain in 1957, and had always relied on imports.
Mike, Don’t buy it. If this guy feels he has to blame someone else for his own failures, can you really trust his word? I’ll bet his colleagues heard that and thought to themselves “Speak for yourself…[expletive of choice]”
Anyway, regarding quality: GM isn’t worst, it’s among the best. GMC and Cadillac are in the top ten. And GM is number one in car sales both in the U.S. and in the world.
Most of the car makers are doing a good job when it comes to quality. Take a look at the problems-per-hundred cars graph on the JDPower website. JDPower lives and breathes quality questions and measurements and automakers pay through the nose for their help in identifying where they are weak and where they can do better.
In the linked results, Toyota had an average 1.06 defects per car. GMC 1.19, Cadillac 1.17, Chevrolet 1.24. Chrysler had an average 1.2. The industry average was 1.24. It’s all very close and all of the carmakers get surprisingly better, year after year.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006082.pdf
You say “Are they only NOW deciding to pay attention to quality since they are desperate?” The very short answer is “No.” The longer answer is, their quality has been improving for years and just keeps getting better.
Auto Broker Magic notes:
“The problem is that real hard and objective data is hard to come by. This isn’t information the car manufacturers readily share in a comprehensive way. Perhaps they’re a little “sensitive” about it.”
You think? Or perhaps, instead :
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Most five to nine year old cars aren’t serviced by manufacturers so manufacturers don’t have the information to share. I detect a rather open and obvious bias in the quoted statement.
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Most manufacturers are in the manufacturing business. They’re not in the business of serving data to Auto Broker Magic or to anyone else.
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Manufacturers rely heavily on outside sources for research on long-term reliability of their cars. That is good if it is independent, objective, and constructively compares brand-to-brand. If it is good, the manufacturers buy it and gobble it up and try to spit it out as higher quality.
And regarding Auto Broker Magic’s statement: “And what can be more authentic than real people, putting mileage on real cars and encountering real problems … and having them reported?” I’ll give you credit for being able to come up your own list of reasons why such reports might be as much a mix of fact, fiction, and innuendo as any other form of storytelling.
- And, not for nothing and sorry to lean so heavily on an obvious stereotype, but when was the last time you took the assertions of a used car salesman, who’s trying to sell you a car, at face value? I hope you find some humor AND truth in the preceding question.
The J D Power Initial Quality survey is just that; it basically refers to assembly defects. In that respect, manufacturers have made good gains. As we state in other posts, poor engineering but good assembly will earn you a J D Power award, never minds if the transmission packs it in after 2 years, or the head gasket blows at 20,000 miles.
To be a good car you need 1)robust design quality, 2)tight control over manufacturing and your suppliers, 3)and good final assembly. The UAW proudly state the assembly quality of US cars, since that is the part their members are responsible for.
German cars, those BUILT in Germany,have good assembly quality, but often spotty enginering, which makes many of them unreliable. The VW Passat is agood example. German cars built in Mexico, such as Volkswagens, suffer in all 3 areas.
Once the Detroit 3 start shining in areas (1) and (2), I will happily buy their cars.
JDPower is not a survey of assembly defects.
One of their surveys is - the initial quality survey that Docnick referred to. It actually documents problems in the first 90 days of ownership; that can be inferred to represent assembly defects. There is also another survey they call the vehicle dependability study, which reports defects in the first three years of ownership. J.D. Power also has a design and performance study.