Tesla Model S - reality is troubling

General Discussion
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@shadowfax. The southern areas of our country could run on 100% and in the north like summer blends, 100% could be used the warmer part year with blends included for the rest of the year. Other alcohol products could be put into the fuel choice as well. That you get less energy out of 100% alcohol is easily off set by the much lower potential cost. I can see, miles per dollar instead of miles per gallon as a more worthwhile measuring metric. As far as small motors are concerned, without a computer and EFI it becomes more difficult. Obviously outboards could go this way but propane and natural gas become an obvious substitute for many small motor applications. Non ethanol or low ethanol could still be used during the transition.

I disagree back. There is definitely a place for all cars being flex fuel capable. Cars are only certified for 85% for warranty purposes. They are fully capable of running 100% and cars could be re certified. Toyota does not make special cars just for Brazil that are only 100% flex fuel capable there. There is little that has to be done between 85% and 100% as far as the car is concerned.

162

Where is the lower potential cost? Ethanol has long proven to be more expensive to produce than regular gasoline. Once the blender tax credit dried up a few years back, E85 was suddenly right in line with regular-grade gasoline.

And we aren’t even talking about the energy required and environmental damage done in the production of ethanol. Ethanol doesn’t just appear - we have to grow it, which takes energy, and we have to make it, which takes energy, and then we have to transport it by truck, not pipeline, which takes even more energy.

Gasoline is dead in the water. Eventually we’re gonna run out.

Ethanol as it’s implemented in the US today is a waste of gasoline.

Even if ethanol had lived up to the promises the industry made 10 years ago - and it’s never even come close - it would still at best be a band-aid to stretch the oil supply a little farther to give us time to get a non-gasoline solution to market.

Which, it should be noted, is exactly what Tesla is trying to do.

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I don’t want to pick out statements and be one of those guys who takes things out of context, but" gasoline is dead in the water" and we are “eventually going to run out”. My reply is, only if you plan on living for two hundred more years. Gasoline as a major car propulsion fluid will be around for years and years and years. What I argue for is an open market on those sources so there is competition and the prices are not so volatile. Ethanol was sold on two fronts. As an oxygenation agent that polluted less and as a gas supply extension additive. Guess who benefits as much as anyone by extending the use of ethanol ? Yes, the oil companies and that is why they are in support of this effort IMHO. Selling less for the same or higher profit is always preferable. Simple economics to me.

Tell me when EVs will be a significant replacement for the American auto,…,hybrids not included…they burn gas. You and I aren’t driving them and they had viable models decades ago with the RAV4 electric and the EV1. Both were proven, reliable and functional commuter cars with 100 plus miles per charge. We are no where since and are exporting gasoline. Why ? One reason, in addition to efficiency and the stabilization of gasoline supplies due in part to the shift in composition to ethanol. 10% reduction gives the petro industry a big boost. Both of these happened because of govt. Intervention with support of both oil and agriculture and both are arguably, good things from an economic POV. Not mine personally…but who listens to me. Again, our affront to just aggies and govt. alone is unfounded. It’s a plan with support from many.
We remain a petro based economy in transportation and will forevvvvvvvver it seems. That includes gas powered cars. In your next buying cycle, do you plan on an EV ?..and nor do I. It hasn’t changed since I was a 15 year old, learning to drive my dads VW.

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a new tesla for 2017. 35 grand

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Yeah maybe. The market would dictate somewhere around $40K, with a 500 mile range, a 10 minute fast recharge available throughout the country, heat in the winter and cooling in the summer, ability to pull a boat or snowmobile trailer, etc. etc. and making a little noise for our sight challenged folks crossing at the intersections. Regardless, the product is not fitting the mass market at this point but only a small portion of the specialty market. Not to mention something to compete with an F-350. I still like engines though.

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cartalk posted it on facebook. new tesla coming out in 2017, 35 grand

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Facebook? Why not CarTalk? I don’t do Facebook, Twitter etc., but I read the papers.

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Stiill dont think the range is there,but Apples and oranges.I will acccept an electric for its disadvantages and still like an ICE for its advantages and superority in certain modes and conditions.A electric auto with honest 100 mile range would do me a lot of good-Kevin

169

Until I Googled it (actually, I “Binged” it), I hadn’t realized that Tesla has already posted details on the upcoming Model X. To me, it looks sort of like a Model S that mated with a Lexus RX. In other words, very sleek, and not very SUV-like in a traditional sense.

The biggest surprise to me was the gull-wing rear doors, or as Tesla calls them Falcon-wing doors.

Take a look at:
http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

170

That X looks pretty neat, kind of a AWD super sedan. But the price will be a bit higher than the S, so it’s the $35k model 3 that’ll be the volume seller. But I’ll wait and see, the ‘lower cost’ base version of the S never really happened.

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@dagosa , no, I’m sure we won’t run out before I’m dead, but part of being a responsible member of society involves not screwing succeeding generations. We need to do the groundwork on finding alternate energy sources now so that later generations aren’t left out in the cold.

As for buying an EV my next buying cycle - - That’s actually quite possible, assuming my TL doesn’t crap out on me before I think it will. I tend to keep cars until they die, so I anticipate still driving the TL 10 years from now. By then the Model 3 should be out, which is affordable. Or hell, maybe my fortunes will change and I’ll be able to get a Model S instead :wink: Either way, yes, electric is definitely on the table for my next car purchase unless I end up having to get one a lot sooner than anticipated, before the Model 3 is available.

172

Might be great but I’m just not into falcon wing doors. As a practical matter, if you are in a heavy rain, running for the car, open the door to jump in quick and the whole inside is flooded. Nice maybe for Sunday drives in Southern California, but really for Minnesota, what would be the purpose of them?

173

They’re just the rear doors, to make it easier to get to the 3rd row seats, it seems. Kind of a gimmick, to me.

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If the door is designed well enough so that water runs into a big enough channel, you wouldn’t get water in the interior, and in fact you’d get less water on the inside of the door, which would be nice.

175

The electric car is the ideal flex fuel vehicle. Some would argue that when the electricity is generated with coal or oil, the savings are not that great. The illogic to that is, coal and oil are burned in generating plants(coal especially) at a constant rate during off peak hours…so in essence, you have some unused electricity. As a part of the entire grid which includes nuke, water etc, it’s a sum gain as well. Besides, the experts I here talk all say the same thin g. When more EVs come on line, that will stimulate the growth of cleaner electric generation over all including solar. Ideally, solar should be a big player in the sunbelt and privately when efficiency is raised, individuals will be generating their own as technology advances.

Driving for free is hopefully in the future of many car owners. What keeps it from happening ? There is minimal profit in doing this and like any major infrastructure project which benefits the average citizen but does not generate revenue for business, it needs to be supported by the govt. That’s how EVs are sold now, that’s how all will be sold sold and supported in the future…with the tax dollars and govt. Intervention. IMHO, Teslar will never be a big seller of EVs. It will make ground breaking machines whose technology will filter to those who can. Heck, Toyota has hitched their wagon to Teslar for that exact purpose already. As states mandate more zero emission cars, auto companies, as they have been, will be forced to provide them…with tax dollar help,of course. It will only happen as federal and state regulations . require them. Private companies will not make them on their own…

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The 3rd row in the X looks lik it is for small children only. Where does the cargo fit in? It doesn’t look like there is enough room behind the 2nd row seats for another row and cargo.

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“The 3rd row in the X looks like it is for small children only.”

Elon would have something to say about that:

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That is an interesting video. Thanks for posting it@insightful. I haven’t changed my mind about room in the 3rd row. It still appears cramped to me. And the rear cargo area seems as small as I imagined it. But with the front cargo bay under the hood, it does have a lot of luggage space. But the complaints I have about the rear row and back cargo area are the same ones I would make about any CUV.

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In Eastern Europe, you needed to be a good Commie to be able to get on the list for a car from the state owned car factory. I hope that’s not what you have in mind for the USA with government mandated and subsidized cars. As one who has enemies on both the left and right, I’d have a hard time getting on any list for a new car. Better go change the oil, it might be a long wait for a new one.

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Sorry, @dagosa - I’ve got to disagree in several areas:

“…The illogic to that is, coal and oil are burned in generating plants(coal especially) at a constant rate during off peak hours…so in essence, you have some unused electricity.”

This is incorrect. You are correct that coal is used for ‘base load’, with (typically) natural gas used to rapidly respond to changing demand (such as when a front comes through West Texas, taking all the wind power off line in a few hours). But coal-fueled generating plants don’t sit there wasting fuel when demand drops. They decrease power output. This is like an alternator - there isn’t ‘free energy’ always available from the alternator, it loads up as power is used.

“When more EVs come on line, that will stimulate the growth of cleaner electric generation over all including solar”

Solar use is opposite of EV use, where most recharging will happen at night. While there will be spare capacity for electricity at night, it’ll be from coal, gas, or nuclear.

“Driving for free is hopefully in the future of many car owners.”

Nothing “free” about electricity.

“What keeps it from happening ? There is minimal profit in doing this and like any major infrastructure project which benefits the average citizen but does not generate revenue for business, it needs to be supported by the govt.”

I don’t see how wholesale use of expensive EVs “benefits the average citizen.”

" That’s how EVs are sold now, that’s how all will be sold sold and supported in the future…with the tax dollars and govt. Intervention. "

Our country cannot afford to maintain the very basic services we all demand, it CANNOT afford to start paying a large fraction of the transportation costs of everyone who want a new car.

"As states mandate more zero emission cars, auto companies, as they have been, will be forced to provide them…with tax dollar help, of course. It will only happen as federal and state regulations . require them. Private companies will not make them on their own… "

Easy answer: mandate improve mpgs (already done with increased CAFE requirements) and raise gas taxes enough to fully support the road system. As folks continue to buy less gas (it’s already been happening for years), increase the gas tax as needed to continue to support the road system. No new tax system, no massive subsidies, a stable, workable system.

Get nuclear power plants refined to allow reasonable replacement of coal power with (admittedly higher-cost) electricity free of CO2 emissions.