“Somebody smart recently said somewhere that AWD just makes you go faster but does not make you stop faster. I think that summarizes nicely the argument for winter tires even with AWD. I believe that AWD is very overrated for everyday purposes. A nice front-wheel drive car with good snow tires will do the job sufficiently well. And it’s much cheaper.”
I agree if you are talking about a RWD car. Retaining steering control in a FWD car is a balancing act most safely done by easing up on the accelerator while in the curve.
Centrifugal force is a fictitious force, as you feel you are being pushed into the window in a turn it is actually the window pushing on you, but that does not mean it is not a useful shortcut for describing events. Einstein thought gravity was a fictitious force also. If your kids have gotten used to the podcast of car talk you can threaten them with having to read and figure out this page
The same cop pulls the same guy over a week later for speeding. The cop admonishes him for speeding but the old guy denies vociferously he ever was.
Frustrated, the cop leans in and says to his wife; “Look lady get a handle on this guy, and tell he was speeding and a danger to everyone on the road.”
To which the lady replied; “Not me officer, I know better to argue with him when he’s been drinking.”
This may be off topic but I have always been wondering why FWD drive vehicles are then generally considered to be the more “foolproof” vehicles. Are they poorer in handling but more tolerant against error or what is the reasoning behind all of this?
It troubles me to see that a person with a degree in physics says that there is centrifugal force, when my physics text specifically admonished the use of this concept. I never used that concept in my mechanical engineering course work.
While you can feel something like a “centrifugal” force, it is really a reaction to centripetal force. Inside a vehicle, they balance each other out and that’s why you don’t fly around inside. But to an observer in an inertial frame of reference outside the vehicle, there is only centripetal force and the occupant inside is constantly accelerating toward the center of the circle. If such observer see some mythical “centrifugal” force balancing with centripetal, the occupant and vehicle would be going in a straight line, which means there wouldn’t be any centripetal force at all. Because we arrive at this contradiction, there cannot be any “centrifugal” force in the inertial frame of reference, a frame of reference where force and acceleration vectors may be analyzed.
It troubles me to see that a person with a degree in physics says that there is centrifugal force, when my physics text specifically admonished the use of this concept.
Well there appears to be an on-going debate. Those who use the term vs those who do not. It seems it has been going on a long time. I doubt if we will be able to settle it here. It appears many people understand the meaning of the term, but some, while they understand it, don’t like using it. Others equally well informed believe the opposite. In both cases it appears they both come up with the same answers at the end of the day.
Did your text or your instructor fail to explain the concept of centrifugal force?
My text when I was studying at Ohio State University back in the 1970’s used the term, I would guess others did not. I have found a number of authorities that use the term today.
It appears to me (no serious study) that more current text accept the term than those that condemn it.
Does anyone have an example of someone properly using the term as it is described coming up with an invalid answer because of it?
I suspect it is more semantics than science because of the use of the term “force” when it does not seem to fit the strict meaning of force often used in physics.
Front-wheel drive vehicles are heavier in front, so they tend to understeer more than rear-wheel drive vehicles. Understeer (plowing straight ahead in a curve because the front tires have lost traction) is much easier to recover from than oversteer (spinning out because the rear tires have lost traction) for the average driver.
12/10/08
THANKS TO ONE AND ALL FOR YOUR KIND ATTENTION AND RESPONSES. IT’S DISCOURAGING
TO SEE THAT MOST OF YOU DISAGREE. NONETHELESS, I STILL HOLD W/ MY ‘TECHNIQUE’.
IN VIEW OF THE LACK OF UNANIMITY, HOWEVER, I HUMBLY BESEECH THE ORACLES-TWAIN,
TOM & RAY, TO WEIGH IN WITH THEIR HIGHLY REGARDED FINAL WORD ON THE MATTER. IT
WOULD BE MOST VALUED AND APPRECIATED.
JUST A SIDEBAR HERE FOR MOST OF YOU FINE FOLKS- YOU (MOSTLY) SEEM TO OVERLOOK
THE FACT OF THE ANXIOUS & EAGER TRAFFIC-FLOW BEHIND. TO SLOW, RATHER THAN
ACCELERATE, COULD VERY LIKELY CREATE -SHALL WE SAY- DISPLEASURE WITH THE DRIVERS
BEHIND A N D COULD EASILY CAUSE A ‘REAR-ENDER’ TO MY ‘LEAD’ VEHICLE.
SO, TOM . . . RAY . . . . WHAT SAYETH THOU ? MANY, MANY THANKS.
SINCERELY, DAN CAMMAROTO
Well, if you’re talking about going around a gentle curve on the interstate, don’t do anything, no need to slow down. As for T&R, I have never seen them post here, except to pose a question once in a while, so don’t hold your breath. And I think if you count the posts, it’s pretty well unanimous - yours is not the correct approach.
Regarding your thoughts about creating displeasure with other drivers behind you, that isn’t much of a justification. After all, you are responsible for operating your car in a safe manner. Don’t let some unknown person influence your driving since he and his insurance will not be paying the bill if you crash.
The overwhelming disagreement with your technique should tell you something. Why be disappointed instead of learning something? I think you have gotten some pretty good advice here. There is always dissent about these kind of things. What I wonder is, if the overwhelming evidence presented here doesn’t change you mind, what will? If you were going to do your own thing anyway, why did you ask for help?
I feel sorry for your spouse having to share a life with someone so inflexible, especially when your spouse is so obviously right in this instance.
DEC/11/08-
DEAR ‘jtsanders’- THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE AND AFFIRMATIVE STANCE ON MY POSITION. MOST RESPONDERS FEEL I’M WRONG, HOWEVER. CAN YOU DO ME A FAVOR AND EXPLAIN -A BIT MORE IN LAYMAN’S TERMS- JUST WHAT YOU’RE SAYING IN YOUR RESPONSE.
GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANKS- DAN
DEC/11/08- THANK YOU ‘Joseph_E_Meehan’ FOR YOUR COMMENT. ARE YOU SAYING THAT, THIS ‘TRICK’ IS JUST AS VIABLE ON CITY / HIGHWAY DRIVING AS IT IS ON THE RACETRACK ?
-CLARIFICATION: I DRIVE A LOW PROFILE, '04, LOW TO THE GROUND, COMPACT PSUEDO SPORTY-TYPE CAR. AS I SAY IN MY ORIGINAL LETTER, I OBEY THE SPEED LIMIT, BUT WHEN ENCOUNTERING A SHARP BENDING CURVE I ACCELERATE A BIT -SAY APPROX 7 MPH- IN ORDER TO HOLD THE ROAD AND KEEP FROM DRIFTING INTO THE ONCOMING TRAFFIC. THIS PRACTICE ABSOLUTELY WORKS FOR ME AND I’M QUITE PERPLEXED AS TO THE CONTRARY POSITIONS I’VE BEEN RECEIVING FROM MOST OTHERS. THANKS- DAN
Well stated…the idea of briefly accelerating while in a corner with the intent of maintaining equal traction on all four wheels words will work with a Formula 1 if the intent is to get through the corner as fast as possible. If your intent is to safely corner on an on ramp in a typically poorly balanced FWD car…
IT’s A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING.
Do we even know (I might have missed it) what “dccammaroto” is driving…
Let me get this straight, you speed up 7 MPH to avoid drifting into another lane? Am I the only one who sees a flaw in that reasoning?
I don’t understand why you are perplexed. There are some extremely well-written explanations of how and why your reasoning is flawed.
I can’t believe you are asking Joseph to validate this behavior after he clearly stated “If you goal is safety, then I suggest slowing down before entering the curve.” What part of that don’t you understand?
Those ALL CAPS are hard for most people to read, please …
What I am saying is the professional drivers may well use a trick something like what you are explaining. However they are driving a far different car than you are, and at far different speeds (I hope
It is not something that would be easy to do, even if it would work on a road car. In most cases it will only make the car less stable. I am not sure it is really used by race car drivers for that matter. Also remember that their goal is to go through the corner taking the least amount of time and to come out of the turn going as fast as possible.
I would not be surprised if you are confusing the way to drive through a corner and start accelerating before they come out of the corner. I don’t believe they start accelerating as the enter the turn.
12/14/08- Geez, Fellas, I feel like I been drawn-and-quartered AND
tarred-and-feathered. Mr. Cammaroto -me- drives a humble 2004 Dodge SX2 .0, FYI.
OK, Alright ! I get it. I’ll mend my ways (and ‘stay out of town’ !).
Just one question for all of you- My letter is originally addressed to
’CAR-CARE P-R-O-F-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L-S’. None of you fine gents advised in
your admonitions whether or not you were / are ‘professionals’- That is:
technicians, engineers, auto repairmen.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. . . .
It’s just that I was looking for individuals who actually work on cars
for a living or are perhaps driving instructors.
But, anyway, thanks again for your time, energy and concern.
Sincerely, Dan Cammaroto
All the academic answers are amazing, but to demonstrate how wrong Mr. Cammaroto is, one need only remove the one thing keeping him on the road: traction. If you tried what he does on ice or snow, you’d crash. It is as simple as that. Accelerating before a curve on ice or snow, front OR rear wheel drive, gives you the best chance to wipe out. Slowing down as you approach, and then gently accelerating out of the curve, is the best way to avoid wiping out on snow or ice. Adding traction back in, the way to lose traction on ice is the same as losing traction on dry pavement, though not quite as easily.
It it makes you feel any better, I hold a commerical driver’s license from my days as a professional driver and I occasionally teach the Motorcycle Safety Foundation’s Basic Rider’s Course.
In spite of all that, what drew my ire was that even if you were 100% correct, you should respect your spouse’s feelings. When you make this person feel unsafe and ignore those concerns, you demonsrate your lack of concern for your spouse’s feelings. Now go out and buy some flowers and apologize to your spouse for being inconsiderate and I will be happy to forgive you for being such a dolt.
