Good point by Hiroshi. Mobil1 is a PAO oil, as is Amsoil. Most other popular synthetics are just hydrocracked type lll or llll oils.
I recommend synthetic oil only if the car maker recommends it or you have an engine that has sludge issues. Example mopar 2.7 engines.
Thanks again folks, I appreciate the comments. What is PAO synthetic vs other types of synthetic? Also, to dodge330 . . . how would you know if you had sludge issues until it is too late and you’ve already experienced a problem with sludge? My engine is a small 1.5 Toyota, anyone hear anything about sludge and Tojo 1.5 engines? I never had an issue with this (in 40 years of driving and doing my own work) and can only imagine finding out either by pulling off the valve cover every once in a while or having oil starvation due to a sludged-up engine. BTW, I’ve decided to go to 5000 mile oil and filter changes, using Mobil 1 and a good quality filter. Thanks again! Rocketman
In answer to your first question PAO stands for polyalfaolefin, an ethylene molecule which is highly modified (synthesized). Many synthetic oils started out using PAOs but went to dino oils which were further modified and called them synthetic which, I guess, is technically correct. This was to save money. I’d stick with Mobil1 which is PAO based.
Incidentally, you may notice a minor oil leak at first but it should clear up after a couple of weeks as the synthetic cleans up the sealing surfaces. My grandson bought a '97 Dodge pickup about 5 years ago which had a minor oil leak that would leave oil spots on the driveway. He switched to synthetic and the drips got noticeably worse. Then after about a month the leak totally stopped and hasn’t left a single drop in 4 years.
BTW, if you use Mobil1, there is no need to use the Extended Performsnce version. With a 5000 mile change interval, the base level Mobil1 provides all the buffers you need between oil changes.
Synthetic may very well be overkill but I do use it in everything I own. This includes small air-cooled engines which run hot and may be the first to benefit from its use. Some engines are pickier about oil or are more prone to sludge issues. I see the Chrysler 2.7L mentioned above. Several friends owned cars with this engine and only one made it beyond 100k before a rod went through the block and he used synthetic. Even with that, a rod went through the block. It is obvious to me that this engine had several design defects. The PCV system was junk, the water pump leaked internal to the crankcase when it started to leak, among others. IT was obviously not the greatest engine. Some Toyota engines also had sludge issues. It wasn’t that they were bad engines, but Toyota specified too long of a change interval. Those who used synthetic and/or changed their oil at 3k anyway seemed to not have the issue. It is my understanding that Toyota routed coolant differently through the head to increase combustion temps and efficiency but this was harder on the oil. I also understand that they altered the design in future engines but that engines with the old design are not bad as long as you adhere to the new/revised oil change specs from Toyota. I would probably use synthetic in one of these engines.
As for oil specs and store brand oils… Oils have to meet API or ACEA standards to have that certification. While Supertech oils may not be the top of the line for conventional or synthetic, I don’t think they are terrible oils either. I personally know how Wal-Mart works with requiring their vendors sell at a lower price, often throwing quality out the window. Lookup FASTCOMPANY SNAPPER MOWER WAL-MART in Google and you will find an interesting article about how this works. While the article applies to mowers, the same applies to everything from computers to TV’s to furniture. I would post the link but they never seem to post here.
Now there are some oils I see for sale at Wal-Mart and convenience stores that don’t meet ANY specification or meet the oldest API spec out there. I seem to recall one brand being Accel, Excel or something like that. I wouldn’t use these for anything other than chainsaw bar oils. IF you were stranded with an oil leak on the highway, they would work but I would change the oil to something meeting or exceeding the manufacturer spec, no matter who made it.
The important thing is to maintain warranty coverage. For example: if you drive a GM car, make sure your oil meets Dexos. Each maker has their own spec and the European makes also have their own specs which tend to be more stringent than the API specs.
Now I have a 1994 Geo Metro for the mileage. It uses a tiny 1.0L 3 cylinder. The forums for these cars indicate that stuck rings and burned valves are not uncommon. Some of this is due to the age of the cars and the fact that they were cheap to start with so people didn’t take care of them. It is also related to the fact that they are not forgiving to neglect of the oil or use of the wrong grade of oil. In this case, people have found that the European spec synthetics tend to help these engines out quite a bit. They didn’t even have these grades or specs at the time the car was designed 30 years ago but they seem to work quite well. European spec synthetic in a lowly Geo Metro may seem to be overkill but it works for me. With it getting 55mpg, spending a little extra on oil to keep it going is well worth it to me!
I can only go by my own, personal experience, but in 2005 I bought a used '97 Cavalier with 132,000 miles on the clock as a commuter. The car used about a quart of dino oil every 1000 miles. At the first oil change, I switched it to a full synthetic.
I actually use the full synthetic because I’m lazy and like to change oil once a year. I changed the oil in this little car once a year until I sold it after retiring last year. It had 241,000 miles on it then. The oil had been changed nine times in the 109,000 miles that I drove it – an average of 12,000+ miles per change.
When I sold it, it was using a quart of oil every 8000 miles or so – I just added a pint every 4000 miles to keep it topped off.
If you are using syn in small engines, be sure to consult the manufacturer or manual first. Briggs just changed their recommendations to allow synthetic, but only 5-30, not any old weight. I’ve tried it on two engines now and seems to work fine. Good luck getting any info on Tecumseh and have no idea about the others like Kohler. But you can’t just substitute synthetic because you think it is better in my view anyway, I’d be careful.
Tecumseh went out of business 5 years ago.
“Tecumseh went out of business 5 years ago.”
Yep, that’s why I said good luck getting any information from them. Too bad too.
I understand that some of the splash lubricated engines are touchy with changing the viscosity up too much. I usually break them in on what they call for, then go to a Rotella T6 5W40 full synthetic. This seems to work great in them. One engine was beyond repair by the time a switched but have no doubt this prolonged the life.
I also have an experience where changing to synthetic decreased oil consumption. When I got my 1992 Geo Metro (second one), it was using about 1 quart every 1000 miles. I switched it to a Mobil 1 0W40 European formula and the oil use declined dramatically. I might now see a tiny drop on the stick between 3000-4000 mile changes. I also used to note a slight oily residue in the air cleaner housing where the breaker/PCV comes in but no longer see that either. I have heard other stories about synthetic causing oil use to decrease or stop so all I can figure is that the better oil is loosening a stuck ring or something.
Now I also have my 1994 Geo Metro. The first engine in it burned 1 quart every 100 miles and sometimes you couldn’t see the cars behind you. I tried changing to a better oil but all I accomplished was turning more expensive oils into a smoke screen. The engine was just plain wore out so I found a decent used engine and swapped it out. Now it doesn’t burn oil.
^Nice story, but the TRUTH is that pulling out of WM turned out to be financially disastrous for Snapper. They were ultimately purchased by Briggs and Stratton as recovery of monies owed, the plant in Georgia shuttered. They sell Snapper mowers in WM now…but all they really are is re-badged Murray mowers.
85% of a push mower is the engine, which is NOT made by the mower company, but Briggs and Stratton, Honda, Kohler, or similar. As a semi-commercial mower (I do forclosures and a half-dozen or so regular customers), I cannot see paying any more than the minimum for a mower with a given engine: if “brand a” and “brand b” both are powered by a B+S Quantum, I’d buy the cheaper mower unless there was truly some odd extenuating circumstances. (Cheaper mowers are generally lighter and simpler, with less stuff to break, another factor in their favor.)
Lawn chairs?
To be honest, the entire story sounds highly embellished, like a “sour grapes, poor-me” fable. I have a really hard time accepting that a WM VP would have someone’s leftover lawn chairs in his office. WM has sufficient power behind them by virtue of the size of their organization as a potential customer. They don’t need to play third-grade mind games.
My experience with cheaper mowers has been they use cheaper parts. They are both lighter and simpler overall which can be a good thing. The problems I see are that the decks are very light and flimsy. You hit one thing and end up busting a hole in the side of the deck or the flange where the motor mounts to the deck cracks, and then the blade is beating the side of the deck. I can usually find good decks with junk engines and just swap them when this happens.
The engines are also built of lighter and cheaper materials. I have personally worn out a few of these engines and it wasn’t because of neglect. Several had a plastic or nylon camshaft. The problem with this is that the timing gear on the camshaft is a nylon or plastic while the timing gear on the crankshaft is hardened steel or whatever. The crankshaft gear seems to hold up just fine but the softer cam gear wears out after a while. I looked at replacing the camshaft but the cost of the part and the gasket/seals kit was as much as a new cheapo mower, making the engine disposable in my mind. Sure, the thing ran great before this happened and it didn’t use any oil but it wasn’t worth it. It kinda made me mad as I had taken really good care of the engine and it was designed to break. You wouldn’t find something like this in a commercial grade engine.
Now lots of people never run this kind of mower long enough to wear out that part of the engine. They just run them until something goes wrong and go buy a new one. They never change the oil, spark plug, or do any maintenance at all. Sometimes the engine dies from never having the oil changed. Sometimes it fails to start in the spring because they left stale gas in the tank and the carb is varnished up so they roll that one to the curb and go buy another one at WM.
My town has a citywide bulk trash cleanup once or twice a year where people set out items such as appliances, furniture, and the like. You can always find mowers with something minor wrong set out. It is usually just a varnished up carb but sometimes you get a good deck with a bad engine. Sometimes the deck is rusted in half and I just leave those out for the scrappers to pickup.
While most of us here understand that there are different grades of products sold under the same brand names, many don’t realize this. They think that buying a 47 inch Sony TV at WM for half the price of one the same size at an electronics retailer means you are really getting a good deal. This is often an older model with fewer features and a lower resolution but is often a model made to order just for WM. I work on computers and see many Compaq and HP units from Wal-Mart. They have W or WM in the model number to signify this.
My latest curbside acquisitions:
A medium size dehumidifier. Looked nearly new. Had a clogged drain.
Can’t recall the model right now, but looked it up and it was over $200 new.
A model 30E1 Vornado window fan from 1956. Gummed up bearings from lack of oil.
There is one thing I have experienced with curbside pickup mowers that have tar-like oil. Although the engine is likely just about shot, changing the oil seems to hasten the demise. I don’t know if the thick tar oil is cushioning worn bearings or what but I have seen multiple old junkers put a rod through the block right after I change the oil. These were splash lube so I don’t think it broke loose crud and clogged a passage or anything. MY only explanation is that the specified weight is now too thin for the worn clearances and the thing gives it up.
When I get a mower like this with crappy oil, I change the oil with a decent but not too expensive conventional oil. I let it run like 5-10 minutes and see what happens. If it holds together, I then change it again. If I feel the engine has potential, I use synthetic. If I am not sure, I run a normal change of conventional through it and see what happens for another change. These neglected engines usually give it up within minutes of an oil change or will hold together for the long haul.
I changed my oil to Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic today ($22.66 om sale w/rebate for $10 on-line) for 5 quarts (only used 4, 1 left over for next time) and Puro filter $3.99, so about $25 for oil & filter, going to extend the interval to Toyota specs of 5000 miles/6 months.The rebate will knock that down by $10. I expect a little jump in mpg, I’ll let you folks know how things go… Thanks for all of your comments! Rocketman
How good is that Pennzoil Platinum that is made from natural gas? The commercials make it sound like a revolution in oil technology but is it as good as they say?