Bscar, you call Honda boring. I will give you my Camry for one day and see what boring is. The new CRV we have gotten feels like a sports car compared to that Camry. The only thing the Camry does not have is a Buick sign on the trunk…
Here’s a list of all the things that went wrong with my parents’ brand new 92 Corolla (some of which was fixed under warranty)
2 interior door handles
2 alternators
brake light switch
neutral safety switch
2 leaky valve cover
torn CV boots
(nothing too serious except for alternators but still a nuisance)
We sold it for scraps when the 3 speed AT failed @ 110,000 mi
I thought perhaps my Japanese built xB would do better than a Corolla built in a joint Toyota/GM plant in California, and it did. Still
various light bulbs
fail driver’s power door lock
harmonic balancer that took out the alternator (fortunately not the engine)
I do not know how long the AT would have lasted as mine was an MT.
Given these 2 experiences, I’m not a believer of Toyota’s reliability. Meanwhile, our rough riding and loud Mazda Protege needed nothing replaced aside from normal maintenance items. The soul of a sports car thing may not be everyone’s cup of tea, certainly not my parents because of the high insurance rate, but it did what it was suppose to, offering reliable transportation.
As the OP said, Toyota is offering mediocrity, and in our cases, something less than that. They sold us boring vehicles that needed stuff replaced.
If a prior comment about someone purchasing a flogged Asian car that suffered problems and then blaming it on Honda, Toyota, or whomever was directed at me, that would be incorrect.
My opinion is based on working for Asian car dealers and seeing them enter the doors on a daily basis for warrranty repairs. Many entered the doors when the warranty was up and were owned by customers who expected warranty to pay for it anyway.
In some cases those owners had a very good point. Why should an immaculate, well maintained Asian car drop a transmission at 30k miles with the warranty up the month before?
Warranty is defined as the repair of a factory defect in parts or workmanship and there is no shortage of this on Asian cars. The last poster mentioned Toyota door handles.
My youngest son just had the 3rd one break on his Camry and a blind man can see why this occurs. They’re made of 1/8" thick plastic with no reinforcement webbing and they’re sold in droves on eBay for a good reason.
I’ve got another post that I’ll separate so as to keep it as short as possible.
I could cut and paste until the net runs out of bandwith so I’ll just tab a few here from various automotive publications and new sources.
Toyota first. (The only issue is the '09 date. This type of thing happened earlier; it was only the runaway Death Race Toyotas creating the media frenzy that caused it to surface.)
Toyota has been plagued by a series of recalls since late 2009 that now total 19 million vehicles worldwide. Two weeks ago, the automaker recalled 2.2 million vehicles for a defect that may cause gas pedals to stick, widening one of the recalls from late 2009.
The recalls have cut into Toyota sales, particularly in the United States, where most of the recalls have taken place
Honda.
Leading Japanese automaker Honda is trying to get past its series of recall but it seems that the shadow of recall is still haunting the car giant. In a recently released statement, the company said that it will have to recall around 410,000 small trucks and minivans belonging to the Element and Odyssey series. The break system in the vehicles can make stopping a problem for the drivers if the fault does not get repaired. The recall will cover 68,000 Elements and 344,000 Odysseys approximately. The cars were made in the years 2007-20
Nissan.
Concerns
[edit] Manufacturing, design, and assembly flaws
The QR25DE sold in the United States has been subject to a significant number of problems in its lifetime. A variety of mechanical flaws have led to numerous technical service bulletins, recalls, repairs, and outright engine replacements.
Subaru.
Although Subaru has enjoyed healthy and record sales over the last year, the small-yet-emerging automaker continues to be plagued by recalls.
The above doesn’t even scratch the surface.
I noticed that you didn’t post ONE recall about GM/Ford and Chryco…Probably too numerous to fit in this blog.
As I’ve said before, I don’t consider recalls to necessarily be all that troublesome.
Of the 3 cars that I own or have owned in the past 15 years, I’ve had two recalls. One was for a loose steering wheel nut in my '98 Camry, and the other was for spider infestation in the EVAP gas lines in my '10 Mazda6. My '97 Taurus was never recalled. I never had any problems with the steering wheel or the EVAP systems, but I did have other (mostly minor) problems with both the Camry and the Taurus. Nothing wrong with the Mazda so far… many significant reliability issues are simply never subject to recalls. Take a look at Honda automatic transmissions from the late 90s / early 00s - by modern standards, they had abysmal reliability, but the vast majority of those with problems were never recalled - just given extended warranties. Simply looking at recalls is not a good indicator of quality or reliability, IMO.
Take the Ford Focus and the Honda Civic. The Focus was plagued with recalls its first two years… then all of a sudden next to nothing. From what I recall last I looked, there were several times as many 06 Honda Civics recalled as there were 03- present Ford Focuses combined. I would NOT say that was evidence that the Focus was more reliable. In fact, I don’t believe it is. I also don’t believe that the Civic is significantly more reliable than the Focus anymore, either… the numbers I’ve seen say both are good, despite the recall info (I’d still avoid 02 or earlier Focuses or older Civics with automatic transmissions)
“I agree with that statement…to a point”.
I think it depends on the recall…And how many per vehicle. When the Ford Escape was first introduced I think it set the record on how many recalls per vehicle. That tells me that Ford rushed the design to production.
I too look at how well the company handles Recalls or reoccurring problems…And many times a recall doesn’t show up until for several years after the first car stepped off the assembly line. Toyota fell down BIG-TIME in the acceleration pedal problem…They denied there was a problem…right up til the end…
GM FINALLY fixed their decade+ long problem with intake-manifold problem effecting tens of millions of vehicles…note there was NEVER a recall…Just 10+ class action suits.
Ford I think finally heard the public…and I “think” is now making decent vehicles…We’ll see.
A companies business model says a lot about a company. And unfortunately GM and Ford’s business model is still - reward executives based on how well they do this quarter…It was reported in Business Week just 2 months ago that GM added “quality” to the metric that determines executive bonuses…GEE…You Think that was necessary??? My company designs Solutions for the Telecom industry (hardware and software). If our business was the same as GM’s…we’d be out of business within a year. And if GM adopted our business model…they actually might survive.
Even I, a Toyotaphile, have to agree that as Toyota has become more “Americanized” it has strayed from its prior excellent quality. My '76 Corolla, my '79 pickup, my '86 Toyota van, and my '89 Toyota pickup never had even a minor glitch until they got old, and none of the major systems (engine or drive train) every wore out. My 2005 Scion, on the other hand, had a few minor body glitches. A year after I bought it one of the hatch struts blew and the sliding roof has to be occasionally reset. Mechanically it’s been flawless and is currently at 160,000 miles.
I also have to agree that for some years now Camrys have been boring. An auto writer a few years ago wrote that the Camry was so boring it’d make you scream and so quiet that nobody would hear you.
I know we’ve debated this before, but IMHO Consumer Reports is still the most comprehensive compilation of data around, and I’d still refer to their ratings as to who’s the best and sho’s still trying.
Regarding Toyota and Honda commanding a high price on the used car market…there’s a reason. They’ve historically made the cars that aged the best. It’s simple demand and supply. People seeking used cars look for something that has aged well, and theirs have.
MikeinNH - I agree that the Escape was rushed to production - but it was the Focus that set the recall record, though the Escape wasn’t exactly stellar, either. All of that occurred with Jacques Nasser as CEO, and not surprisingly, when management changed and bonuses were structured to be based on quality (something that happened right after Nasser was given the boot), you didn’t see anywhere near that scale of problem again. The record that the Focus set was also for the most number of recalls, but it was well short on the total number of vehicles recalled - they had a lot of small problems that boosted the total recall number, but didn’t affect the full year’s production run.
Interestingly, I think I give more credit to Toyota for last year’s problems than you do - but its other denials, like the decade long fight to avoid recalling 4Runners for dangerous steering linkages, that bug me… Last year Toyota set more of an example of how not to conduct your PR than anything related to their actual quality and responsiveness, IMO…
But yes, I agree bonus models based on quarterly performance are BAD… and I’d point to Ford’s switch to include quality, warranty costs, etc, in the early 2000s and subsequent rise in reliability ratings as proof…
mountainbike - I’d never deny that CR is a good source of information, but I would simply say that it is just ONE source of information that should be used, and it should be used with caution. Because they show a relative scale and not absolute problem rates, it often makes differences that are statistically insignificant appear to be noteworthy. I can’t tell you how often I see mechanically identical (or near identical) vehicles rated differently. Last I looked, they still said that the transmission in the Mazda6 was less reliable than the exact same transmission coupled to the same base engine in the Ford Fusion… which makes no sense unless you consider that the differences aren’t statistically significant… and that listed difference was greater than what you see between many makes and models…
mountainbike - and yes, the Camry is dreadfully dull (at least my 98). I think my wife would pull a knife on me if I tried to switch cars on her. But it is also no longer quiet… and won’t be until I find someone to repair the exhaust system at a reasonable price.
Eraser, you make a good point about CR being only one source, as well as about the way the data is presented. But still, if there exists a difference between CR data and another source I’ll tend to give the CR data more weight. I can also tell you that CR data has shown my car to have body hardware problems, which it has. Although they were minor to me, they did show up in the CR ratings.
I’d guess that few 13 year old daily drivers (like your Camry) are as quiet as they once were.
mountainbike:
Absolutely CR should be used to help identify consistent problems: if something rates below average, you should always investigate further… but since its a nonlinear scale, the difference between average and excellent is MUCH smaller than the difference between average and much worse than average…
So their list of used cars to avoid? Avoid them. But anything average or better? Really, its more a matter of personal preference and complete luck of the draw…
“GM FINALLY fixed their decade+ long problem with intake-manifold problem effecting tens of millions of vehicles…note there was NEVER a recall.”
Recalls are for safety related issues. How is this intake manifold issue a safety problem? I suppose it could be, I’m just not sure how.
@galant:
Bscar, you call Honda boring. I will give you my Camry for one day and see what boring is. The new CRV we have gotten feels like a sports car compared to that Camry. The only thing the Camry does not have is a Buick sign on the trunk…
That is quite sad, really.
I test drove a Civic sedan not long after thy introduced the newer design, and I had to practically force myself to stay awake driving it; that’s how boring the drive was. I found the Camry I test drove to be a bit more fun than the Civic, though the Rav4 was more fun than the Camry and Escape I test drove; granted the Escape was the hybrid version.
If you think the CRV is a sports car, I’ll lend you my CX-7 for a day. 
“Should we get the word out that Toyota/Honda no longer make the best?”
Best for what? If it is resale value, the Toyota or Honda are still very good, which makes them “the best” for someone who trades cars after 3 to 5 years. For someone like me who drives cars until the car is ready for the crusher, resale value means very little. On the other hand, as a used car, other makes may be a better value. I remember when I was starting 8th grade and my mother when back to teaching. My parents needed a to buy a used car for a second car. The popular cars at that time (1954) were the Chevrolets and the Fords. The used Fords or Chevrolets my parents could afford were junk and the used Fords or Chevrolets that were in good shape were out of their price range. My dad bought a 1947 DeSoto coupe at a very good price and it was the most reliable, trouble free car he ever owned.
The best car for not being boring to drive? I think it would be a Mazda Miata. Mrs. Triedaq disagrees. She saw the good repair record for the Miata in Consumer Reports and thinks a Miata would be boring. She thinks if I want an exciting car to drive I should get an old Austin Healey Sprite. She says that real men aren’t afraid to get out and push their cars when the break down and the AH Sprites break down frequently.
For a long time, I bought unpopular new cars when they became used cars. These were the best cars for me–I could get a newer unpopular car (like a Rambler) for the same price I would pay for an older popular car.
I find CR to be overall accurate…But you have to be careful when evaluating individual cars…Their data has been shown to be flawed on certain cars. Go pick up any issue of CR and you’ll find discrepancies in ratings between two identical cars, but branded differently…(i.e. Chevy Truck and GMC Truck).
But overall their data is good. And again…I use it as ONE source only.
eraser - Yea I know the intake-manifold isn’t a recall …I was just bringing up the point that it was a MAJOR problem for GM with 10’s of millions of cars effected…Yet people see Toyota with a recall that effects a 2 million cars (which I ALSO THINK IS BAD)…they point out…look GM NEVER had a recall like that…Maybe true…but that intake-manifold problem where it DESTROY’S your engine is pretty significant problem…And should NOT be ignored…
Best is subjective and model dependent.
My informal read and very limited experience tells me this;
No Tundra beats a GMC Isuzu powered 3/4 ton.
No Tundra beats a gas powered Ford F150…
Son’s Fusion V6 performs well but Honda 4 Accord and Camry 4 top the 4cyl Fusion IMO and his.
Few compact SUVs rival the RAV but midsize Chevy/GMC is hard to beat by Highlander; and not one builds an off road SUV compared to Nissan/Toyota SUVs, 4Runners and XTerras for the money. Reliability over the entire product line in Toyota seems outstanding but there have been a few dogs with many others offering superior products to them. Since the Supra, I would be hard pressed to take a corner in any Toyota (except. Lexus) and really, is there a better buy for drivers than a Ford Mustang ? But, for the money, name a vehicle that that is as good off road as a Tacoma 4wd, even in standard form. Honda and Toyota offer great minivans, but really, according to many who own them here, bang for the buck may still be with Chrysler. So this thread will get a lot of posts and no agreement cause there is none.
Excellent points dagosa…
Yes they all have dogs…But over-all…Toyota/Nissan and Honda’s are hard to beat…
Ford did a fantastic job with the New Mustang…Not sure of it’s reliability (but I hear it’s good)…But for looks and performance…Nothing Toyota/Nissan or Honda makes comes even close…If I had money to burn…I’d either buy one of the New Mustangs or an Older Vette as a Toy…
But alas…I don’t have that kind of disposable income…So I have to buy what’s best (financially) for me an my family…And since 1980 all but one was from either Honda, Nissan (Datson) or Toyota/Lexus…and the one that wasn’t (1984 GMC S-15) was a financial nightmare.