Just wanted to say, I’m enjoying all your inside info/tips and anecdotes Deep Plaid. Thanks.
Have you ever sold used cars and do you have any tips for dealing with used car salesmen/women…are there different techniques, and is there a way(s) to tell if you’re dealing with a crook?
My feeling is that the vast majority of car deals are completely on the up and up. Fast talking, a little BS, and some puffing do not constitute fraud IMHO. Stating that a used car has a brand new transmission while knowing full well it does not is fraud; happy talk is not. The salesman does their homework and so should the customer instead of plowing blindly ahead with no thoughts other than “where do I sign, gimmee the keys” and we’ll worry about the remorse later.
The attire comment (Kurt Russell in Used Cars, a great movie!) made me think of a salesman who worked at the same dealership I did. Great guy, late 20s. Every day he would come in dressed in the brightest, gaudiest outfits he could find. He practically glowed in the dark. Example; Lemon yellow slacks, pink socks, white shoes, bright red shirt with red/white striped tie, etc. Every day was like this. I think the clothing kept the customers distracted from the paperwork! Whenever I ran into him at the front desk I’d always ask him to pull a duster on or something because his outfit was making my eyes ache. 
Can’t get too much into what the salesmen do but I could relate a few tales about what customers have done to the dealers. As a dealer I worked for used to say “The gen’rl public done learned me everthing I needs to know”.
hi jad
thank you so much… wow what a compliment! i sure hope that tom & ray & all the folks from car talk & npr are reading all of these these. (lol)
yes, i have sold u/c (used cars) at all the new car dealers i worked at, and was also a salesman and f&i rep at a very well respected, family owned independent u/c dealer in central texas for over 10 years.
now,lets address your question. now that i’m a consumer here are some things i do to when shopping for a used car. first of all do your homework. don’t let anyone rush you! shop as hard for a good dealer, as you do for a good deal. before you ever sign or buy anything do your homework, give yourself plenty of time to shop. do not let anyone rush you into a decision. ask your friends, relatives, kids teachers, coaches,
principal, & your co-workers, barber, doctor, lawyer, minister, neighbors, also ask your banker, loan officer, credit union loan officer, bank teller, your auto insurance agent and the people at the city & county tax offices the where they buy their own autos, & where they have had the best service and gotten the best deal. do your homework first. go to the federal trade commission’s (ftc) web site they have a lot of valuable info on line. make sure that any car lot you go to is clearly posting the as is/ no warranty - ftc buyers guide on all the cars they offer for sale. if not ,do not deal with them. leave their lot a.s.a.p. no exceptions! posting these buyers guides is a federal law. it is not optional. all dealers in the u.s. must post the ftc buyers guide in plain view and declare and check the block- either as-is no warranty or warranty. no exceptions! oral statements are usually worthless in court. so, get it in writing. a good rule to remember if it’s not in writing it’s not in your best interest. and he’s is off the hook.
get it in writing. get it in writing. get it in writing! i cannot preach that enough!
if the dealer has a good reputation then he won’t mind putting it in writing.
1.do your homework
2.write or call the bbb.
3.go to:rip off report.com
in texas we have the texas dept of transportation (txdot) & they have a motor vehicle division. your state may have something similar.
the tax accessor collector in your county also knows which u/c dealers are registering sold vehicles as required by law. they should & may offer advice to you. in texas we also have the (occc) offfice of the consumer credit commissioner, note lots must be registered with them in order to do “in house” financing.
the state comptroller, has a record of all sales taxes collected. if a dealer is collecting sales tax on the title application, then he should be reporting it and turning it in quarterly to them. call them and see if they will release info to you. collecting & not reporting sales tax is strictly against the law & a tell-tale sign a dealer is a crook. in texas dealers have 21 days to get your
tags, register your vehicle, and furnish you with a white slip. using a draft with your banker or credit
union can almost insure the dealer will have to register it with your county tax accessor-collector. the draft is not paid until the bank receives the “white slip” so this insures the registration. and makes sure you get your current license tags. also check the inspection tag on the car. if that’s expired, you’ll want it renewed prior to purchase to avoid costly repairs after you sign. take the car on a good test drive 20-30 minutes or longer. over night if he’ll let you. or pick it up when he opens bring it back about 4 pm. tell the dealer you need time to let your personal mechanic to inspect it first. if they object go somewhere else. take it to a certified state inspection station. ask if it will pass state inspection
(if expired)
another good deal is the certified used car program. all franchise dealers have that. they all have lower miles, qualify for lower interest, & must meet certain mechanical requirements. now the warranty stays with the car so always ask what the in-service date is. that’s the date the warranty clock started ticking on that car. for example if it’s a factory 50 month /50,000 mile warranty- then you have 50 months or 50,000 miles which ever event happens first. 50 months started the day the car was put in service. so it’s important find out what that “in-service” date is. the dealer or u/c salesperson can do it for you. or get the vin and the mfg’s 800 number and get it yourself. and the attorney’s general office in your state is another good source of info. these are all good sources.
i’d say deal with someone who you personally know, and have had association with. if your relatives or friends bought there & were satisfied find out the salesperson’s name or the owner’s name. go in and introduce yourself. do some homework first. it will pay off in the long run.
car-fax is ok too. but don’t let them charge you for a report. their is nothin better than a hands on
mechanic or transmission man driving it out. check brakes, brake pads,
transmission shift, tires, “blow by” etc. etc. , inspecting and driving it out is the best!
another thing: ask the dealer to see the title. inspect it, get him to photo copy it front & back. if he
ojects, or stalls ask him when you can examine it.
ask a lot of questions and trust your commom sense.
show the photo or fax of the title to your banker or tax collector’s office. let them examine it.
that never hurts. buy from someone you know and can trust. even if you pay a bit more. it’s worth it.
a dealer that belongs to local clubs like rotary, lions, shrine, or masonic lodge etc. etc. & civic organizations is also probably a good choice.
be careful and be a wise shopper.
remember, this is the second largest purchase you’ll ever make next to your house.
don’t make a mistake.
hope this helps you.
thanks again for the nice compliments and question submissions.
yours truly,
deep plaid
yes, that’s funny what movie was that? another movie was thelma & louise, wasnt one of them’s husband a car salesman? thelma i think? right? anyway, also have you ever seen the cover of the don henly’s cd
“actual miles”? plaid sport coat, loud tie, sunglasses, big cigar! it’s another good one too!
yeh my first sales manager in 1985 was mr. kennneth stewart, he was about 50-55 back then,
we called him “the chief” he was a blast, had that old raspy voice, but was warm & friendly,
never screamed, or lost his temper-ever!
and he was kind of an “old school” kinda salesman, he kinda dressed like that, he was a unique dude. white shirt & tie, aggyle socks, wingtips or loafers, polished,
black coffee & cigg every morning. you never forget your first sales manager. long live the chief!
yes, i agree. 99.9% of all the new and used car dealers in this country
are people of honor and integrity. the one i have worked for certainly all were.
and i learned a lot from each and everyone of them. yeh, i wouldn’t take for all my tales.
man iv’e got some too! and i’m missing a lot of hair too! i was and still am full of b.s. you have to be
full of it in this business to get them to come see you. everybody loves humor. bob hope, dean martin, jerry lewis, red skelton, rodney dangerfield all made a living doing it. they’d of busted the bank if they
had bought a car dealership too. everybody like to laugh i always wanted to make it an enjoyable experience. a little humor will go along way too.
thanks for your interest & input
deep plaid
I had an uncle a few years back that owned a Toyota dealership. He often noted that the “dealer invoice” was a gimmik to use in negotiating a price. Oh yes, there really is a manufacturers “invoice” for each car that the dealer will gladly show you, causing you to believe that you were buying at the absolute bottom price. However, what is not discussed, or shown, is the factory rebate after the end of the model year based on the total number of cars sold. That rebate can range from 10-20% of the price of the car, which is pure profit. In effect this means that the dealer really had an additional margin to work with when you thought you had gotten the best deal. The only thing I’m not sure of is whether the dealer shared any of this rebate with the salespersons.
Do car salesman make any money selling a vehicle at or near invoice? I bought two Subaru’s the first with negotiation for $200 over supposed invoice (their sheet and confirmed on internet) - rebate. The 2nd Subaru which was sold to wife was offered at invoice - rebate which I said sure. She wanted a manual transmission so they had to swap their automatic version out.
The salespeople seemed happy each time so I assume they made some money? I paid cash for the first car and the 2nd was financed by my wife’s credit union.
some really good points!
& thanks for your insights.
again, no he probably didn’t share it. most will not ever share that bonus money.
and i think that should be against the law. it’s wrong!
someone should have investigated this a long time ago. when your hired on as a commission salesperson, they should pay you commission on every dime of gross they get. not just the part they wants to pay your commission on. that is just so underhanded!heck their is usually already a " pack" you have to overcome as well. if this could be uncovered, it would be huge.
but you’d have a hard time fighting it and proving it. but it goes on i can tell you that. i know it for a fact. another thing that works in the dealer’s favor is when a trade is involved, rather than miss a sale, he’ll just off another 500-1000 more for their trade to get the customer to committ,
he’s not putting more in the car, he actually using that incentive money that you don’t have a clue even exists! their is just really no way to determine what new car dealers actually pay for certain! just no way. the mfg. wants to keep it that way to. these guys have millions invested in their dealerships. they are entitled to profit. the mfg. will see that it stays that way too! the dealer makes a profit on each car he sells. yep- they are gonna make profit on each car. you or no one else is gonna stop them. so forget about it. so what if they show you 1 invoice or 10 different invoices with 10 different amounts.
you’re not gonna believe them anyway-right? and again it’s their store, even if they show you the invoice,it doesent mean they have to or will do business at invoice. they may want $200.00 over invoice.
here’s just some of the reasons why. next time you pass by any new car franchise look up on the roof.
what do you see? satellite dishes. they get direct electronic e mails from their respective mfg. each day.
usually only one person is allowed to read those. because they usually contain very classified and highly
sensitive bonus, factory fast start quotas and incentive moneys that the public is not privy to. only the dealer principal knows about this sensitive information.
some money may be on vehicles in their inventory with certain invoice dates. some may apply to vehicles ordered with a specific option only. you just never know. but these dealer incintives are served up to the dealer the entire year round. on a given month their floor plan interest may be waived- who knows.
other money may retro-active bonus cash & could be on vehicles that have already been previously delivered.
that’s a pet peive of mine too! i say they owe the extra commission on that. but if you dont know about it well…what’s their to pay? right …that’s why it’s strictly confidential.
usually the dealer principal and the office manager are the only ones who know or have access to this information. it’s usually hidden from the sales force and the public for sure. so, go ahead buy one at invoice if it makes you feel good. they’ll make their money on ya everytime. after all they have got a huge investment on the line. they are entitled to make a profit and they will.
i had a friend who’s dad owned a chevy dealership, as the story goes, one time a customer asked his dad to show him the invoice, he told the customer, fine you pay me two million dollars & you can see all of them!
thanks for jumping in here.
deep plaid
in the mid 80’s we got $25.00 per car commission, if we sold one at or below invoice.
that’s it-$25.00 no lie! but it counted as a sale,
& toward your bonus, and your s.o.m. bonus if you reached it. on the last day of the month, that one little skinny $25.00 commission deal, might have made you (s.o.m.) salesperson of the month. and netted you a $750.00 or $1000.00 bonus. afte that in the late 80’s & 90’s we used to get between $100.00 & $200.00 on “miini deals” when sold at invoice. in the business it’s called a “mini deal” but they all count, we never turn 'em down. sure they were happy. i was always glad to watch one go out the door. each & everytime.
yeh they were happy, sure he was. he made money. and he knew you might send him some of your family or friends too. with those two cars out the door he knew their was a possibility you might send him another prospect too.
thanks
deep plaid
Not very much you can do considering that dealerships spend thousands sending their salesmen or represetatives to go to seminars put on by the manufacturer, psychologists, fortune 500 millionares, etc. The only thing that can be done is to follow the “Never, Never, Nevers.” Never; never, never give your car keys to a salesman; tell them how much you can “Put Down”; tell them what your trade is; demand that their mechanics evaluate your trade in; etc.
Don’t tell them anything about downpayment amounts, or trade-in values, or anything like that until they have come back from the Sales Manager with the best deal they can give you. You will probably hear, “I’m not lying. I’m hear to make money. How come you don’t want me to make money on this deal?” For one thing, they order the window sticker from the manufacturer just like they order the car: what they want to have on it. Tell them to make money off of someone else, or their fleet contracts. If they don’t have fleet contracts, go somewhere else. And, when you are telling them you are going somewhere else, tell them it includes any of the dealerships they are a part of. Remember they have a team of people schemeing to sell you the car.
hi norm:
sure their are still somethings you can do & they should give you an edge.
here were some things i liked as a salesman and it usually made try a harder than normal to cut them a deal if someone did these things. this sounds corny, but remember the one of the 10 commandments!
“do unto others” hey, we have feelings too. keep it mutual, normally if a customer treated me with respect & was nice to me, hey- i would reciprocate those “vibes” back to that customer. remember kill’em with kindness! you’ll get more flies with honey, than with vinegar!
What a crazy business this is!! There are “rules” for customers!!
no professor, i didn’t call them rules as such , by any means. there are no rules in this business.
these are merely just some tips from one who has been on the other side of the desk.
that again, in my opinion will give an edge to those who wish to save a few bucks the next time
they want to tangle with a seasoned car sales professional.
thanks for your input & reply.
deep plaid
Dear Deep Plaid,
Thanks very much for your efforts to educate the car buying public here at CarTalk. I have followed the posts on this thread with great interest. I have a question for you. I too have been a victim of having my keys kept when we were ready to leave a car dealership. The keys, of course, were supplied to the salesman to allow his people to drive and evaluate our trade. I have had to get insistent, red faced and worse to get our keys back. Can you say that keeping people’s car keys against their will and at the risk of irritating them has sold cars?
thanks so much for the kind words. yes, i’m trying hard that’s for sure. so keep 'em comin in & i’ll try & answer them the best i can! i’ve heard it’s common in some places, but no car dealers, or used car / sales managers i ever worked for would have allowed that to happen. nope, i never hid or kept their keys.
sometimes , honestly the keys do get left in the s.m. or the u.c.m. office because they drove the car last.
normally the salesperson fills out the appraisel book it’s usually a 3 copy carbonless. once you have it completed you take that and the keys into the u/c mgrs. office and he will then drive and appraise it. he comes back & he goes into his office, may make some calls. the keys and appraisel pad get laid on his desk. it’s up to the salesperson to get the keys and the “acv sheet” back from the ucm. somes sales people honestly forget to pick up the customer’s trade in keys and will only grab the acv sheet. then after the salesperson gives the customer a price the customer jumps up and wants to leave quickly. then the sales person remembers he left the keys in the ucm’s office and has to go back retrive them.
sometimes thats where the slightly dishonest game of hide & seek with keys games begin.
i never did it. i couldn’t afford to risk losing a sale to a p.o’d customer. that’s why it’s so important
for the salesperson to establish a great rapport with the customer ahead of time. get them laid back and comfortable way ahead of time, & they won’t be looking for those keys after they get a price. also you must know when you first meet & greet them how serious & urgent they are to buy. after spending a few minutes initially upon meeting them i could usually tell if an appraisel was in order or not. i’d ask how pressed for time they were? or sometimes if i sensed a tire kicker, i’d just tell them to come back a bit later that our appraiser was not in. but example: if they were in 1998 gmc ext cab 4x4 truck i’d also say now…be sure to come back because i know we can give you a lot for your trade in , cause we have a lot of calls for that model and color too! or i’d say i got a guy looking for a truck like that & i’m sure gonna try hard & trade for yours. i’d say that our appraiser is
gone & he should be back in an hour or 30 minutes. this would slow 'em down and cool 'em down too.
they usually wait and come back too.
first of all, did you give off a signal you were’nt gonna buy right then? or that you were not serious? no i would never risk doing it. i never felt it gave an me any edge.
it just crashed what ever rapport i had built with them. no too risky i never did it.
thanks alot for entering our q&a-happy motoring from Texas!
deep plaid
I have a question about extended warranties and pre-paid maintenance programs. Are these generally good deals for customers or are they generally considered rip-offs?
DeepPlaid, I have to say that as a devoted and proud ex-car salesman like yourself i don’t think that I could have written anything different or any better in regards to your posts. I share many of your viewpoints and would just like to add a string that is worth mentioning.
One thing that annoyed me the most in the industry was the lack of respect and the careless disregard to my feelings customers inherently had upon the initial greeting. I am not old enough, nor have the longetivity in the business to acknowledge or attest what happened in the past is true. I am not ignorant, i agree there is some truth to those frowned upon tactics. I will say however, that everyone i have worked with in the business had morals, values, integrity, and an appreciation for their job. This is what we do as a profession, we have families to feed and bills to pay like any other individual. Sometimes i think customers do not see it in that way. There is a lot of money spent on motivational seminars and training sessions the like in regards to customer relations, “closing” the sale and ways to improve your productivity. None of those seminars however, explained how to better stall a customer, prevent them from conferring with their spouse, or swander people out of their hard earned income.
In addition, people sometimes take the vast amount of vehicle purchasing information available for granted. It’s free for one thing, where in the past it used to have fees associated with it. (Yet sometimes, people in their infinite selfishness still complain about a stupid sticker as dealership advertisement. Hey, i saved you couple of hundred dollars over the “best” price you had; i appreciate your ungratefulness for my time and lack of commission, here’s a sponge and a spray…take care!) Secondly, to my knowledge, apart from possibly comparisson product pricing between Costco, BJ’s, or Sam’s vs. a retail outlet, the car industry is the only one to disclose the invoice, dealer rebates, manufacturer incentives, holdback, and reduced financing/leasing rates. Understand that most of these belongs to us, it is our discretion to share them with the customer, they should not act like we are hiding something. I would never claim that a car payment should be higher upon the discovery that the customer makes more money than originally stated. I want to question your usage of all the pricing information, and the justification that it should be weapons in your arsenal against the dealer rather than a mutual disclosure that helps us reach a fair transaction. In buying a home, how many people research a property’s original sale value or the one after in an effort to get a better price? Well that would be the invoice right? These are all public records and i can see how much you paid for your home as we speak with a click of a button. I can also see how much your neighbors paid. (Wow you paid what?) Do you ever consider this figure in assessing how much profit a homeowner should receive in the sale of their home. You wouldnt dare, its their house, much the same way when you walk into the dealership you are in mine. I am aware of the invoices of the cars, and can list them in any order, even corresponding to my products’ respected wheelbases. Its sad, i know. Despite this, I am not an order taker or serve up the list for today’s specials, i do not have a kitchen and very rarely have customers offered a monetary tip. (Usually tips consist of just a Gloria Estefan CD or something of the like that i found in their trade’s glovebox.) Point is, I am not a waiter, i am a commissioned consultant. I take my career seriously and take the efforts necessary to become not only an expert in my products’ features/advantages/benefits, but also in building lasting relationships with my customers and work in their favor against “the man”(sales manager). Whats in their best interest is also in mine, remember that.
The abrasive demanding attitude that the customer sometimes takes will not get you a better deal, in fact, we will in an effort to waste your time as you did ours, we will low-ball you. Give you an impossibly attainable price of our car, an exuberant amount for your trade, or payments similar to what your cable bill is like. Thus having customers shop that price for day’s on end all the way to timbuktoo only to realize it can’t be beat, and for a reason!. Eventually, weeks later after many dealers saying they cant come close and telling you that you have been fooled, and confident that you have the upper hand with your 8x11 scribbled paper ties us to the price, you return only to find out we are no longer honoring the price (The 24hr. Sale), and thus you begin your search all over again (Mission Accomplished). From a dealership’s perspective, at that point, we are no longer working to earn your business (pardon the cliche) but rather us and all the dealerships are working to make your shopping experience as awful as possible, and if youre lucky, you will find that thirsty dealership whose volume would increase percentages based on the sale, whereas it wouldnt ding ours. Unfortunately, the past has shown that there are many of you with this attitude, so we as a business will retort to your attitude in much the same manner. Surveys that are conducted after the sale in regards to a customer’s experience have a much larger impact on my paycheck than a dependent as Plaid put it. Bad experiences get relayed exponentially faster than good news, therefore causing this misconception of who we are. As DeepPlaid stated, we will go the extra mile, and put forth the best efforts to ensure you are content and satisfied with your purchase and will ensure that is upkept throughout your ownership. It is our contribution and service to receiving your referrals and future business in an effort to hedge the never ending bad publicity. So the next time you visit a dealership, remember that whom you’re speaking to is a person, a professional, and someone that can be your counselor and ally. I would never question your knowledge and competency in your job, please do not do it to me.
The “we can’t find your key” scam was tried on me once, at Academy Honda, on Route 9 in New Jersey. Truthfully, I was not familiar with this tactic until that day. However, I managed to get the keys back very quickly.
How did I get the keys back so quickly? I simply pulled out my cell phone and stated, “Gentlemen, you have two minutes to give me back the keys. In precisely two minutes, I will call the police if the keys are not in my hand.”
Isn’t it amazing that the “lost keys” were found within a little more than one minute? And, isn’t it amazing that I decided not to do business with that dealership?
These protections as we like to call them in the business will usually have a higher profit margin than the actual vehicle its purchased for. I’d like to think the warranty is a better value for the money, especially if its one sponsored or provided by the actual manufacturer. The price of these will tell you the confidence level the company has in its product, and will generally cover more items and create less hassle in the future if a claim needs to be addressed. However, recent upgrades in respective factory warraties have diminished the extended warranties’ value; at some point my opinion will be based on a per case scenario. If i purchase a car and intent and follw-thru on owning it until the wheels fall off then extended warranties can be a great thing. Honda for example may cover you for 10yrs/120,000 in the event ANYTHING other than wear-and-tear and general replacement parts fail/malfunction/make strange noises etc… In my opinion, based on this buying cycle, its a worthy purchase. You may feel like you won’t ever use it, but trust me, anyone that you meet that has the ext warranty will use it to some degree or another. Think of your car insurance. Do you pay? Do you claim? If it were $0 deductible i would claim a lot more thats for sure, well thats what extended warranties are. Hope that answers your question
Pre-paid maintenance programs are also great if you have a large buying cycle as the one mentioned above and want to feel like you won’t have any other financial obligation apart from the initial purchase/payment. Many people feel like they are a lot of money, and they are… However they are designed to cover the factory reccomended maintenance. Oil changes every 5,000 miles, tire rotations every other oil change, multi-point inspections, tire rotations, etc… Do people actually do everything that the factory reccomends. Hell no! You delay something here, find a good deal there, and don’t hold it as a strict supervision, and will thus feel that its a lot to pay for the program. But if my grandma was buying a car, or my wife for that matter, do i want them to be taken advantage of at some local grease shop? In this case the maintenance programs adds peace-of-mind to the package. This one i will leave to you. I’m the type of guy that delays and hops on a good deal, and would rather incur the cost at point-of-service.
One point worth mentioning- When financing, and trading in negative equity from a previous car, leaving you with a higher balance. ALWAYS BUY GAP!!! its cheap, and can save you tons
hello: vdc driver
good for you! i say, that’s the perfect medicine for a salesperson who gets the “i can’t find your keys”
illness! i bet they re-appeared faster than a white tiger in magic act at the mirage in las vegas !!
way to go!! good for you!
thanks for staying smart & staying involved & spreading the word!
happy motoring from the lone star state.
deep plaid
no, some are really good ones. they are just like a health insurance policy only for a vehicle.
some pay off better than others. know your driving habits, and you’ll want a warranty company who’ll authorize the repair quickly & without hassle.
be careful on new cars, & some program cars. with them, you already have a factory warranty. but extending it is still a good option for you.
if your buying used, then i’ll mention 3 extended warranties that i have had good experiences, positive customer feedback, & very pleasant results with, as a service manager and salesman. stick with any of these. dollar for dollar, they will all give you your money’s worth. new or used…
they are in no certain order:
1.(g.e.) general electric,
2.g.m. major guard,
3.auto services company, inc.
thanks,
deep plaid