I MIGHT AGREE WITH YOU TO SOME SMALL EXTENT ABOUT YOUR COMMENT.
BUT ALWAYS REMEMBER YOUR NAME IS NOT ON THAT HUGE SIGN 80 FOOT UP IN THE AIR! YOU DON’T OWN THAT DEALERSHIP. IT’S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO GO WALKING IN THEIR LIKE A GUN SLINGER WITH YOUR SHOULDERS BACK AND YOUR ATTITUDE SHOWING. SAYING YOUR GONNA SELL ME A CAR ON MY TERMS! BECAUSE WITH MOST SALES PEOPLE THAT GETS YOU ABSOLUTELY ZERO! NADA! ZILTCH. NOTHING! INFACT I JUST SHUT DOWN. I DIDN’T NEED YOUR COMMISSION THAT BAD.
REMEMBER ALL SALES PEOPLE HAVE HUGE EGOS. THEY ARE GUTSY, AND ARE GAMBLERS. IT’S THEIR NATURE. I WOULD ALWAYS TREAT MY CUSTOMERS WITH RESPECT. BUT I HAD A LIMIT TO WHAT KIND OF NONSENSE I’D PUT UP WITH TOO.
ONCE YOU REACHED THAT LINE WITH ME… GAME SET & MATCH! SEE YA!
BUT THIS WAS STILL MY OFFICE AND MY HOUSE, AND I SPENT ON AVERAGE 55-60 HOURS PER WEEK THERE!
AND KNEW 99.9% MORE ABOUT THE BUSINESS THAN 99.9% OF THE CUSTOMERS WHO CAME IN. THEIR WAS NO LAW OR RULE THAT SAID I HAD TO SELL YOU ANYTHING. BUT I ALWAYS TREATED EVERYONE WITH RESPECT , ACTUALLY I CONSIDERED IT A CHALLANGE & I LOVED YOUR TYPE. I LET YOU THINK YOU WON. BUT I’D GET YOUR MONEY IN THE END
AND MAKE THE SALE. TRUTH BE KNOWN- MOST DEALERS DO NOT WANT TO SELL A NEW CAR TO A RUDE OR BOSSY CUSTOMER,
BECAUSE THEY MAKE TERRIBLE SERVICE & WARRANTY CUSTOMERS. SO WE WERE ALWAYS CAUTIOUS ABOUT THAT.
JACKIE B. COOPER HAD A SAYING ABOUT THAT TYPE OF CUSTOMER: BIG GROSS-HAPPY CUSTOMER!
SMALL GROSS OR MINI DEAL-YOU JUST AQUIRED A DEPENDENT!
THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT.
DEEP PLAID
I agree 100%. Research is the key and having a min to max budget in mind. The internet is a powerful tool to get pricing information. Also, when you can bargain with facts it is harder for them to give you the standard lines. One of my favs, well that pricing isn’t accurate for this area. Personally, I only found the phone somewhat helpful. Look, leave, look again. Have comps you are considering. This turned out to be the most powerful tool, they don’t want to lose your sale to another dealership. Always be prepared to walk away.
Very simple. Shop around. You will then find the best deal and the salesperson that you want to deal with.
In the case of a Toyota/Honda with no other dealer for 50 or more miles around, then shop competing brands and models. Then go back to the Toyota/Honda dealer to show what you found.
I wasn’t talking “in your face” arrogance. My approach now is to have all my facts together, know what I want, and how much I am prepared to spend… and stick to it.
A few years ago, I helped my son buy his F-150. It was late in the day, we walked into the dealership where he saw the truck he wanted. Manager came out, we hopped on one foot for a few minutes, he asked what I was willing to pay. I wrote a number on a piece of paper and handed it to him. He went back to his office to check his numbers. My son drove the truck off the lot 30 minutes later. I attribute that to me knowing what I wanted, having a firm business demeaner, and making sure that the manager knew I was ready to buy. Done deal.
There are some dealerships that put a “dealer pack” on EVERY car that they have in stock, and I would suggest avoiding a dealership like that. These “packs” usually consist of poor quality items like after-market fender trim, cheap tape stripes, and things that are alleged to be present but are impossible to verify, like “paint protectant” and “fabric protectant”.
Yes, I know that the price of these dealer packs is highly negotiable (due to the HUGELY inflated price of this junk), but I believe that this approach to business shows a less consumer-friendly approach than dealerships that do not automatically install this crap on every car in stock. Personally, I will not buy a car from a dealership that puts a “dealer pack” on every car in their stock.
P.S.–Another of my provisos when I buy a car is:
NO dealer sticker or nameplate on the car!
If they want to give me license plate frames displaying their name, that is fine, but I don’t want anything to be applied to the paint of the car.
oh-ok, yes i always appreciated a customer who was well informed. it made my job so much easier. no muss -no fuss, take your mini deal & move on to the next one. never know. that mini deal might just have made me s.o.m.
and landed me a 1200.00 bonus for the month too! so they all counted!sure i was
on commission. and time was money. so the quicker you got thru with mr. marty “mini” deal the faster you could move on to mrs. helen “high gross” yes your right, any experienced salesperson worth his salt, should be able to tell the difference in arrogant “tire kicker” and a real buyer at 5:30 p.m.
thanks for your input!
deep plaid
ABSOLUTELY!
I agree with you entirely. Everyone, please read this and remember it. WE CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK. AHEAD OF TIME.
If you will shop as hard for good dealer as you do for a good car deal,
you’ll cut yourself the “Best Deal” every time!
ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER:
The price of the car, financing, & payment are NOT always in the top three most important things
that should consider when purchasing a NEW CAR. Remember- you’ll need to go back for service, & warranty work. So, do your home work about the dealers service department, their complaints, factory recognitions, dealer awards, ask your neighbors, local friends, if they have used the service department.
ask if they were satisfied with work that was done. Service should be a very important factor. When that new SS Malibu breaks down with 9,000 miles on it, You’ll never miss that $200.00-$300.00 you were haggling about at the time of the sale. you’ll just want a service department who can get you a loaner vehicle & fix that Malibu SS in LESS THAN 24 hours. TRUST ME…IVE SEEN IT TIME AFTER TIME! SO ONCE AGAIN…
DO YOUR HOMEWORK ABOUT THAT DEALER’S SERVICE DEPARTMENT (BEFORE YOU BUY) IT WILL PAY OFF IN THE LONG RUN!
BECAUSE life goes on
after you sign those papers & pay that F&I manager!
REMEMBER: BE A SMART CAR SHOPPER! ALWAYS USE YOUR COMMOM SENSE.
THANKS,
DEEP PLAID
ALL THE MATTERS IS THE BOTTOM LINE ANYWAY. DON’T BE MISLED BY TRICKY “CATCH PHRASES” THEY ARE JUST CREATED TO SLOW YOU DOWN & CONFUSE A CONSUMER. REMEMBER THEIR ARE ONLY 3 KINDS OF BUYERS: TRADE IN BUYER , DIFFERENCE BUYER, OR A PAYMENT BUYER. WHICH ONE ARE YOU? DON’T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, ASK YOUR BANKER,
OR BEST FRIEND, BUT REMEMBER ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IS THE “TRADE DIFFERENCE” THAT’S THE AMOUNT THAT IS COMING OUT OF YOUR POCKET. THIS IS THE NUMBER THAT YOU SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION!
YEH-
I REMEMBER WHEN CHEVROLET CAME OUT WITH THE SS 454 CHEVY PU BACK IN THE 90’S THEIR WERE INITIALLY ONLY 10,000 PRODUCED. THATS WHAT GM TOLD THEIR 10,000 CHEVY DEALERS- ONE FOR EACH DEALER IN AMERICA! (YEH RIGHT) YEH RIGHT -WE GOT FULL STICKER FOR THEM. (FOR A WHILE) NO REBATES. SOME DEALERS DID ADD A STICKER TO TRY AND UP THE PRICE ANYWHERE FROM THREE TO FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS. IT WAS A SUPPLY AND DEMAND THING. I DON’T KNOW IF CHEVROLET LIKED IT, OR FINALLY MADE THEM STOP DOING IT , CAN’T REMEMBER BACK THAT FAR, AND I CANNOT REMEMBER WHAT THEY CALLED THAT STICKER, WE HAD A NAME FOR IT BUT IT WASN’T “PACK”
10 MONTHS LATER, CHEVY DECIDED TO MASS PRODUCE THEM FLOODED THE MARKET WITH THEM AND GAVE $2500 REBATES
AND LET ME TELL YOU, WE HAD SOME AWFUL PISSED CUSTOMERS WANTING REFUNDS WHO CLAIMED GOT THAY “SCREWED” BY BEING CHARGED FULL PRICE! HAH HAH TOO BAD! YEH I KNOW ABOUT THAT DEAL!
Back in 05 -06 PONTIAC HAD THE SOLSTICE, IT WAS THE SAME WAY, A HOT ITEM AND HARD TO GET BACK THEN.
I THINK SOME PONTIAC DEALERS ADDED THOSE STICKERS. THEY WERE CHARGING 2000-4000 ABOVE THE PONTIAC M.S.R.P.
THAT MAY HAVE BEEN AGAINST THEIR FRANCHISE CONTRACTTOO? I DON’T KNOW, BUT, YEH I’VE HEARD OF THAT, DOESNT MEAN YOU GOTTA PAY IT.
AS FAR AS THE WORD “PACK” I never heard it used in regard to the factory m.s.r.p. window stickers,
we used the word: “ADDENDUM” not “pack”- where we added accessories, like scotch guard, paint sealer,
a roof rack, grill guard, spray in bed liners, or other dealer installed items.
The word pack: WAS ALWAYS USED IN SALESMAN’S PAY TERMINOLOGY; example:
say you sold a car for $12,000 that cost the dealer $10,000, and the dealer had a $500.00 “pack” your commission was paid on only $1,500.00 not the $2000.00 the 500.00 “pack” was a way of the dealer “whacking”
the salesperson’s commission. They all have it. IT’S BEEN THAT WAY FOR YEARS. As a salesperson you had to play by their rules or leave.
HOPE THIS CLEARS UP THE WORD “PACK”
THANKS,
DEEP PLAID
With the internet, sometimes you don’t even have to meet the salesman until you pick up the car. you negotiate the price of the vehicle through emails then you go into the showroom and pick it up.
You don’t always have to go to the same dealership you bought the vehicle from for warranty work, though some service departments only allow loaners to be given to people who bought from that particular dealership.
I REMEMBER WHEN CHEVROLET CAME OUT WITH THE SS 454 CHEVY PU BACK IN THE 90’S THERE WERE INITIALLY ONLY 10,000 PRODUCED. THATS WHAT GM TOLD THEIR 10,000 CHEVY DEALERS- ONE FOR EACH DEALER IN AMERICA! (YEH RIGHT) YEH RIGHT -WE GOT FULL STICKER FOR THEM. (FOR A WHILE) NO REBATES. SOME DEALERS DID ADD A STICKER TO TRY AND UP THE PRICE ANYWHERE FROM THREE TO FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS. IT WAS A SUPPLY AND DEMAND THING.
Same thing happened with the Prius and the Fit when they first came out. If you weren’t willing to pay more than MSRP, you wouldn’t even get your name put on the list for one.
Believe it or not their is another reason for this. Not all of a new car dealer’s vehicles are retailed. Some units are "dealer traded " out- So extra cash can be made on those items just incase another dealer calls & wants one of your units. You then have a little pad and that is then passed on down the line. Back in the 80’s & 90’s we just did light “aftermarket” add-on’s like pin striping on the chevy pu’s nothing else. It could easily be removed or changed too. It was for appearence only. Some dealers went real heavy with all that after-market stuff. Their is really no limit to how much you can add if you want to. But you have to keep in mind, not every consumer has the same taste you do. Aftermarket add-on’s can be a dangerous gamble.
as far as the name plate,I always honored the customers wishes in regard to that. If they didn’t want one , that was ok with me. I didnt quibble about it. hey I got the sale , and the commission, I always figured that they were gonna tell every where the bought it anyway.
FOR THE LAST 25+ YEARS MOST DEALERS HAVE USED THE VINYL STICK ON OR METAL ADHESIVE BACKED NAME PLATES. THEY CAN BE QUICKLY & EASILY BE REMOVED AT THE CUSTOMERS REQUEST. DEALERS HAVE NOT DRILLED HOLES OR USED SCREWS OR BRADS, THAT I KNOW OF IN YEARS.
THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST!
DEEP PLAID
yes, thats a great point! Toyota & Honda- They make it so tough to shop around. Now with gas well over $3.00 a gallon , you’ll think twice about getting in your car and driving 100 miles to get a price and kick tires. The internet now makes it convienent. But,like I say, do your home work from home first, on the computer and telephone. That will save you time and money. Back in the 50’s 60’s 70’s & 80’s here in Texas
and i guess other states as well, their were GM,FORD, & CPD, DEALERS SCATTERED ALL OVER THE PLACE, SOME OF THEM IN TOWNS THAT HAD POPULATIONS OF LESS THAN 500 PEOPLE. IT WASNT UNUSUAL TO HAVE 15 or more CHEVY DEALERS WITHIN A 25 MILE RADIUS OF EACH OTHER. And G,M.'S mfg. plants were scattered all over the country as well. vehicle transports and rail cars were running 24/7- cosat to coast for gm ford, and chrysler and BUDDY,LET ME TELL YOU, THOSE PEOPLE WOULD GET A PRICE FROM NEARLY EVERYONE OF THOSE DEALERS TOO. BY THE TIME THEY GOT THEIR 9TH OR 10TH PRICE QUOTE THEY WERE SO MIXED UP & DAZED & CONFUSED …THEY didn’t know sic’em from come here! They COULDN’T REMEMBER WHO GAVE THEM WHAT. AS A SALESMAN I LIKED THAT TOO. I NEVER WANTED THE FIRST SHOT AT THEM, I WANTED THEM TO MAKE ME THEIR LAST STOP AND GIVE ME THE LAST AND FINAL CHANCE. I’d tell them go get all the other prices, then come see me last!
With dealerships 100 miles apart- This is probably a reason that toyota is doing so well. It took G.M. about 45 years to figure it out, only after Toyota and Honda started eating their lunch!
this is funny! I’ll never forget a Chevy district sales meeting I attended one time back in about 1988 in Temple, Texas. Chevy was so bad about having these people speak to us who had never sold cars before. Anyway, this district rep from Chevy spent OVER an hour and a half showing us a movie on all of Fords new truck model line & their new features, optional engines etc. etc.
for the upcoming year, and he was “driving home” the point that ford was our competetition.
And of course none of us were really listining to him or actually even worried. We all knew that the Chevy trucks were blowing Ford OUT OF THE WATER. Anyway, after he got thru spewing all that senseless crap abut Ford, near the end of the meeting, the chevy rep asked if anyone had any questions…
A well respected ,well known, dealer principal from the area raised his hand & said yes, I was just wondering if you knew that Ford is not MY competetition,
the chevy rep looked stunned in amazement…& said they’re not?
The dealer said why no! IT’S THOSE FIVE OTHER CHEVY STORES I HAVE WITHIN 10 MINUTES OF MY DEALERSHIP
THAT ARE JUST KILLING ME.
Everyone in the room busted out laughing! AND WE ALL WALKED OUT.
THATS A TRUE STORY!
THANKS,
DEEP PLAID
FOR THE LAST 25+ YEARS MOST DEALERS HAVE USED THE VINYL STICK ON OR METAL ADHESIVE BACKED NAME PLATES. THEY CAN BE QUICKLY & EASILY BE REMOVED AT THE CUSTOMERS REQUEST. DEALERS HAVE NOT DRILLED HOLES OR USED SCREWS OR BRADS, THAT I KNOW OF IN YEARS.
They shouldn’t even put them on in the first place. If I wanted their name on my car, they better well pay ME an advertising fee every month I own the car.
well it’s like everything else in this business, it started a long time ago. and this practice
became just became a free & routine way for the dealer to get his name out in the public a little more.
BUT actually your right, IT’S YOUR CAR. You own it! Normally any salesperson
shouldn’t be too bothered if you don’t want the dealer name “logo” on your car.
Another reason it was started was to identify your car to the service department at that dealer
that your vehicle had been originally purchased there or been in one one or more occasions for service.
Some service departments are now instructed to remove the customers current logo and replace it with one of their own when any vehicle is brought in for service. That customer may not even be a regular service customer. BUT, He wont discover it’s been changed until days later & he’s hundreds of miles down the road.
My advice, to you if you just don’t want one applied, when you are signing the papers, & before you leave ,tell the salesperson, & F&I manager at closing, to have the service department make sure that your new car has no dealer logo applied to rear area. Im sure they will accomodate you.
thanks for your input.
deepplaid
This is just a great topic! My favorite area. I could spend hours on this one.
This is where they got ya! Sorry it’s no contest. We always had a lot OF AMMO & weapons
on our side to go up against you with. Let me elaborbate a bit.
New Car drunk:Ever hear of that one? Believe it or not, the smell of a new car can work in favor of the salesperson. If you don’t give yourself enough time to make a consceince decision, then your sunk.
Never ever buy on impulse or for an upcoming event like a vacation, christmas, a wedding etc. etc. Don’t get caught up in that trap. They will make you pay dearly. It’s better to rent a late model from Enterprise, OR hertz, THAN to buy new for those reasons. CARS ARE A STATUS SYMBOL, AND people who want to show themselves off in a “new ride” will end up paying a heavy price for the right to do that. Try hard to stay away from the “Event Trap Purchase” you’ll do yourself and your checkbook a favor. Mistakes are made more frequently in haste. Unless your pocket book balances like Bill Gates, or Tiger Woods, the real truth is, You cannot afford to make a mistake on a car purchase. Hey,don’t feel bad about being munipulated.
Most of these salespeople are “razor sharp” Especially the veterans. Most are exceptionally smooth.
You’ll be like butter on hot toast, after some of them work their magic on you. But, DON’T BE ASHAMED!
I considered myself a master munipulator!It’s “controlled control” and they all have a million ways to do
it. The automakers spend millions each year training AND motivating their salespeople. I know after coming out of some of the Chrysler schools that I attended, my confidence level was super high!
So, be aware, and use good judgement, buying a car is the second largest purchase that you’ll ever make.
Don’t get in a rush to set yourself up for a huge mistake! Always see that “TIME IS ON YOUR SIDE”
and you’ll drive out with a big smile!
thanks
Deep Plaid
Hello Homer,
Their is always room for haggling. No matter what that sign on the window says. It just depends on how desperate they are to sell one on any given day, week, or month. Financial desperation is the determining factor that DELEGATES the rules for how MUCH & HOW FAR the automakers are willing to CUT THEIR PRICES.
That 'NO HAGGLE PRICE SIGN" It’s just automaker propaganda- it’s “bull” don’t pay a bit of attention to that no “haggle price sign”. If on any given day that dealer or the automakers want to move their inventory don’t think for a minute they won’t devise a clever scheme to move their cars & cut their prices
anyway they want to. And, that dealer principal, He owns the store. Don’t you think if someone came along and offered to pay him more for a hard to get model ( which by the way happens more than you think) more than the no haggle price he’d take it. Heck yes he would! well ok, then why wouldn’t he take less near the end of the month if he was having a very bad slow month? which happens a lot in this business too!
Allright then, heck yes he’d take less!
You’d better believe he will.
Here’s a good example, of course everybody remembers ( 911 ) 9-11-2001. My heart goes out to all the brave
men and women of this country.
A LOT OF THINGS CHANGED THAT DAY! INCLUDING THE WAY NEW CARS WERE BOUGHT AND SOLD.
THAT ONE EVENT CRIPPLED THIS COUNTRY FINANCIALLY. AFTER THAT ,THE AUTOMAKERS WERE PULLING THEIR HAIR OUT TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO PULL OUT OF THAT 911 SLUMP. THE AUTO INDUSTRY TOOK A TREMENDOUS HIT THAT DAY AS WE ALL DID. Well thanks to that 1 TERRIBLE EVENT IN AMERICAN HISTROY - ZERO INTEREST NEW CAR LOANS WERE INVENTED. UNTIL THEN, THAT WAS UNHEARD OF. BUT THEY DID IT! ZERO INTEREST. WHO WOULD HAVE BEIIEVED IT? AND NOW, 7 YEARS LATER IT’S ZERO INTEREST IS COMMON PLACE. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT THE AUTO INDUSTRY CAN DO IF THEY WANT TO. WHEN THEIR BACK IS AGAINST THE WALL. AS A RULE, NORMALLY THEY WANT DO ANYTHING UNLESS THEY ARE BACKED INTO A CORNER. BUT FACED WITH LITTLE OR NO OPTIONS, YEH ,OH YEH THEY’LL ALWAYS HAGGLE. IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE AMOUNT OF FINANCIAL DESPERATION THAT THEY ARE FACED WITH AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME. I WISH THE GAS PRICES WOULD COME DOWN ON THEIR KNEES LIKE THAT.
ANYWAY…BACK TO YOUR QUESTION,
Everyday when we opened the doors at our dealerships, I expected HAGGLING.
Haggling goes with the territory of owning or working any car dealership.
You automatically subject yourself to this when you decide to start selling cars.
if you dont like haggling & horse trading then this business is not for the weak at heart.
Hey-It’s not Wal Mart, where you always pay the price that is marked everytime without haggling. (although I have before) & lost, (LOL)
Anyway, IF YOU FIND A CAR YOU LIKE , AND THE DEALER WON’T BUDGE, GO TO ANOTHER DEALER WHO WILL.
YOU’LL FIND THE RIGHT DEAL AND THE RIGHT DEALER. HOPEFULLY WE WON’T EVER HAVE ANOTHER 911 BUT THEIR WILL BE EVENTS THAT DELEGATE HOW MUCH THE AUTOMAKERS COME DOWN ON THEIR PRICES.
thanks Homer,
deep plaid
Hey, deepplaid, please quit SHOUTING at us with all capital letters.
ok, oh- i’m very sorry about that.that was a mistake,
my cap locks were on sometimes.
sorry, won’t happen again.
thanks for the input profhandy.
deepplaid
Here’s a negotiating tactic I have used with success. After some back and forth, at some point I will give my “best and final” offer. For a new car, this is a fair offer, based on my research on the invoice price. At this point the salesperson will leave to “see if my manager will approve”. The salesperson let’s me sit for a minute or so, and comes back with a counter-offer, “…best the manager can do for you”. Obviously they are hoping to find something in the middle. I LOWER my offer by $100 (this drives the salesperson crazy), and insist that they take the to the manager. Usually the manager comes back with the salesperson, smiling, asks me what’s going on. I explain that there is no absolute rule that we try and meet in the middle, and I meant it the first time when i said it was my best offer. I am never a jerk about this, and always have ended up with a friendly transaction at my original offer.
So, my question, how valid is the “invoice cost” info available on the internet?? Is this really the dealer’s cost??
hello professor, & i promise i wont scream.(lol)
yeh, ok- let me jump in here!
any good salesperson will usually always detect a sincere “offer maker” & can tell the difference between
an imposter and a real buyer! i always appreciated an offer of any size. it normally showed me that the prospective buyer was sincere about their intensions. i would have always rather had a ridiculous offer than none at all - anytime. as a salesman it always made me mad when i had worked all day with a customer and they finally made me an offer and i took it to the s.m. knowing that we had a good gross already made on the deal at the offered price and the s.m. told me to go back in with a 'bump" (counter offer) that was just $100.00 0r $200.00 more than their offer. then somethings wrong…
that’s so dangerous because ive seen customers just " blow up" and walk out when you come back in and say well i’ll meet ya half way. then you got nothin! and 30% of $100.00 is only $30.00 you stand the chance to kill your whole deal over $30.00 more in commissions? no not me-heck no! normally if an s.m. was asking you to “bump” the customer, then a trade was involved, and the s.m. was trying to get you to make him a a little under the table $$ from the wholesaler that he had the trade bid out too.
no-no way- if i had a good decent gross made at the customer’s offer, we didn’t go for a bump.
also:
you gotta read this one!
( an exclusive insider car salesman secret trick ) & remember…you heard it here first!
don’t ever talk (in salesperson’s office) on a cell phone or to anyone with you about the on-going car deal, when your salesman excuses himself and leaves the room, & your alone in his office. they usually activate the intercom button on their desk phone before they walk out
and can then listen to anything you say form another location in the building, usually from the s.m’s office or the dealer principal’s office. so, be really careful what you say -because someone may just be listening and you just might give them the ammo they need to close their deal. how do i know? i’ve done it…it works great! so be careful.
thanks professor
deep plaid