The Highway Institute publishes a report on driver deaths by make and model – real world data on car safety. Been doing it since the 80s. One of the very clear trends is a steady decline in driver deaths (which is a good proxy for all passenger deaths) due to saftey improvements in cars – not just ABS, but air bags and electronic stabilization. Most recently, electronic stabilization has helped to transform SUVS from one of the least safe vehicle types to one of the safest. But the earlier comment someone made about minivans is spot on – safest vehicle type. Not just due to technology, but also just because bigger vehicles tend to be safer.
Is anyone able to?
Sure. In fact, it used to be not entirely uncommon for people to know how to threshold-brake, and someone who’s good at that will beat ABS every time, especially on snow and ice. That technique isn’t as well-known today thanks to ABS, but since your husband likes to mess with 30 and 40 year old BMW’s, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility that he would know how.
That said, if you aren’t very good at threshold braking, ABS is a good thing to have, whether you’re transporting kids or not. (but be careful on that if you’re buying old-used. When ABS first came out, it was common to only have it on the rear wheels, which is next to useless as far as stopping distance goes).
The kids thing is, as I mentioned before, somewhat of a red herring - it’s not as though people who do not have children should feel free to be suicidal in their vehicle choice because safety does not matter.
Figure out how safe YOU want to be, and buy accordingly. But don’t be fooled into buying the latest and greatest ubertank just because “it’s safe,” and then drive like a nut because you think you’re invincible. And btw, studies have shown that is not at all uncommon. The safer people feel, the dumber they drive. This is why traffic engineers are starting to cut sidewalks closer to the street, and putting large objects next to the lane, and making shoulders narrower, etc - to make people feel less secure so they start driving better.
I’m sorry, but I think the whole thing about safety and kids is blown out off proportion. A safe car is a safe car for all occupants. Children should not be in the laps of passengers, they should be in proper car seats for their age (weight) and buckled in securely. After that get any car you want. A four door car is usually easier to work with kids in the back seats than a 2 door, but once properly secured both are safe.
A car made in the mid '80’s is simply not as safe as most cars made in the mid 2000’s. If safety is a big deal buy a newer car over an older “classic” car. About every 5 to 10 years there are significant safety advances. Most cars 5 to 10 years old will provide excellent safety for children that are in children’s car seats of good design.
Other issue with '80s cars is rust. And old BMWs are rust-prone, which makes them crush-prone.
Can you convince hubby to buy a “regular & boring” commuter car from this century for daily driving and also have a “fun” weekend car? This way you get a win/win compromise. It might cost a bit more, but I know insurance on the extra car is not much.
The DRIVER is more important than the car…
“I didn’t say either of those things, jtsanders.”
“…so I think I’ve been saved by the car – at least until he finds the next pre-ABS car!!”
That’s how I interpreted this phrase.
“Respectfully, how do you know that?”
It even works for motorcycles. Machines are far better for repetitive actions than people are.
If the driver is driving safely and the car is in a state of good repair, it is safer than any other car driven by an unsafe driver.
All that shows is that for many (most, really) people, ABS is better at braking than they are. Up against a rally driver, ABS would fall far short. My point was that at the time, we knew nothing about the husband’s driving abilities. For all we knew, he was Marcus Gronholm. There are people out there who can outdo ABS with proper braking technique.
@shadowfax
I’m skeptical. Limit braking may work for racing drivers, but they have different goals than most drivers. All safety devices on modern automobiles prevent the racer from driving on the edge, and keep them from winning. They don’t want ABS, launch control, or traction control because it keeps them from using skids to control the car. Anything that gets between them and the wheels is in the way. That is not the case for most of us. We don’t drive enough, and certainly not enough at the edge of disaster, that we can learn how to use limit braking effectively. And no one should learn about it on public roads.
In threshold braking, the goal is to brake just hard enough so that the wheels almost, but not quite, lose traction. While ABS works by rapidly pulsing the brakes between loss of traction and traction, threshold keeps it steady at that… . Well, at that threshold. Stopping distance decreases.
I agree that people shouldn’t be learning it on public streets. But they shouldn’t be learning skid/spin recovery on public streets either, and that’s another skill that drivers should have.
Relying on the safety gadgetry to rescue you when you get into a bad situation leads to two problems; First, when the gadgetry fails, you’re screwed. And second, you tend to overestimate the capabilities of the gadgets. A classic example is the 4-wheel-drive SUV we’ve all seen blowing by us in a blizzard because the dope behind the wheel thinks “4-wheel-drive” means “perfect traction no matter what the conditions.” I’ve also seen people overestimate the recovery capabilities of their vehicles - ABS and stability control can only do so much, and when a situation exceeds their compensation abilities, you’re again screwed.
I tend to be somewhat ambivalent about all the computer assisted driving we’re getting these days. Not only does it impart a sense of security that tends to make people drive dumber, but it also makes those people woefully unprepared when they get into a car that doesn’t have the wizardry installed. I’m more of the mindset that drivers should know how to drive their cars, or they shouldn’t get licenses. In short, driving is not taken nearly seriously enough in this country, and it’s the only activity where you’re allowed to be in control of a multi-ton weapon without being in full control of it. All the gadgetry in the world isn’t going to save people from dumb driving, which is why when these “what’s the safest” questions crop up, I tend to wonder how good the driver asking the question is, and if they’re doing anything to improve their skills.
Folks love to post ‘it’s not the car, it’s the driver’. Well, yeah, a bad driver is unsafe. However, the OP is not asking for advice on finding a new husband, right? She’s asking about a safer car. And cars today are safer than cars were 30 years ago (and MUCH safer than most 30-year-old cars). Enough with the ‘it’s the driver’, unless she’s getting a divorce.
Yes, my husband is a safe, defensive driver. He doesn’t think that he can break better than an ABS, and he’s not JUST looking at cars that don’t have an ABS – we test drove a new Audi A3, and a new Volvo C30. Alrighty, I think I’m done with this discussion, but carry on if you would like. Thanks for your input on my original post.
“Yes, my husband is a safe, defensive driver. He doesn’t think that he can break better than an ABS, and he’s not JUST looking at cars that don’t have an ABS – we test drove a new Audi A3, and a new Volvo C30.”
Excellent. Safety is always a topic worth mentioning, and worth the risk that someone will take the inquiry the wrong way. Good luck finding a car for your family. In case you return, try checking out the medical payments in the tables at the link below. This is real information from every insurer in the USA. Medical payment is an indication of personal injury in your car only.
http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y=2008-2010&cls=3&sz=3&sort=medPay
Click on any segment of the market and then click on “Medical Payment” to sort from low to high.
An overlooked earlier comment mentioned another safety feature, ESC, electronic stability control. Check it out on Wikipedia, it’s a good thing, combined with the copious air bags (side, knee, curtain). There is no extravagance in buying a new car if you intend to keep it long enough to pass on to your oldest offspring. You have been good stewards in driving your current cars.
Yeah, I’ll weigh in. Mechanical integrity and reliability are as important to safety as any other factor except driver behaviors. A brand new or late model vehicle of almost any make will be much safer than any 30-40 year old BMW. Modern vehicles have so many more safety features such as crush zones, better passive restraints, better lighting, and various other things that cars of 30-40 years ago simply cannot compare with, and their chassis, braking systems, and powertrains are reliable and in good shape. Even just around town, these can make a huge difference should he get in an accident.
Used cars that age have long histories and large risk. If he insists on an old BMW, IMHO he’s better to stick with one he knows (his current one) than to risk trading for another old BMW with an unknown history. The last time I checked, a '73 Bavaria was plenty big enough to carry two kids to school. If he’s using this for an excuse to get a newer BMW, it’s a weak one.
He bought a 2008 Audi A4 with a 2-year full warranty and only 20,000 miles. We are all happy with the choice.
Good luck and enjoy your new car. The IIHS and NHTSA safety ratings are excellent.