Retorquing bolts after gasket replacement

[enargins]

Here’s a question. As noted I’ve had the car for 17 years, and I’ve never felt any vibrations at all, not even slight vibrations.

If the engine mount had been loose prior to the repairs, is it possible that the repairs (replacing valve cover gasket, manifold gasket, and cat) could cause the vibrations, though they weren’t felt before?

That is, perhaps there is more tension being put on the engine block due to greater efficiency with the new gaskets and cat, and this is causing the vibrations with the car, whereas previously the engine mount might have been loose but there just wasn’t enough tension for it to cause any problems?

As noted above, I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m just throwing ideas out here to try to figure out why the car would start seriously vibrating at idle, when it never did that before during the 17 years that I owned it.

Thanks!

[eddo]

@enargins

As noted above, I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m just throwing ideas out here to try to figure out why the car would start seriously vibrating at idle, when it never did that before during the 17 years that I owned it.

Thanks!

As @db4690 said: none of the work you are telling us was done would cause an engine vibration.
Is the check engine light on?
Take it back to the shop and see what they say about it. If you don’t trust this shop, then find another reputable shop to take it to.

Sometimes a coincidence is just that. You do have a 17 year old car, so some things that were fine last week won’t be fine anymore. That’s normal.

[enargins]

No, no check engine light.

Yes, @db4690 said none of the work would cause it, and it might be a bad mount. So my question was – if the mount had previously been bad, then could the work done have caused the situation with the bad mount to be MANIFEST, though it might not have been manifest before, even if the work itself didn’t cause the problem.

And, yes, I did take it back to the shop. They’re going to look at it today.

[Mustangman]

You keep posting the same question again and again even while getting the same answer from different posters…

Stuff just fails, especially on a 20 year old Chrysler.

This leads me to believe you are hoping to justfy asking for free repair work from this shop. Give up, you aren’t going to get justification from us.

[eddo]

@enargins

if the mount had previously been bad, then could the work done have caused the situation with the bad mount to be MANIFEST, though it might not have been manifest before, even if the work itself didn’t cause the problem.

possible? sure. Likely? probably not. You could be driving it harder now that it’s fixed and caused bad mounts become worse mounts. Or, a speed bump could have twisted it just right. Or just normal driving may have pushed it over the edge.
This is all speculation, especially since you aren’t for sure that mounts are the actual issue yet.

again, things sometimes just break on a 17 (correction: 21) year old vehicle. You may not be able to affix a cause or blame to anything other than just age.

[TwinTurbo]

I would at least give them the opportunity to see if they dislodged or forgot to reinstall some connection when they did the work. Considering the age of the parts, a vacuum hose may have cracked from all the movement during the gasket replacement.

[enargins]

@Mustangman

This leads me to believe you are hoping to justfy asking for free repair work from this shop. Give up, you aren’t going to get justification from us.

Sorry that you feel that way about me. No, not looking for justification. Just trying to understand what might have happened. This is partly because I don’t 100% trust this shop’s competence anymore, and so, if they were to say, “Oh, it’s just something that happens in old cars,” but folks in the forum here said, “Yeah, such and such might have caused it,” then I’d be able to have something to discuss with them about it further.

Furthermore, my last question – about whether the work done could have caused an existing problem to manifest itself CLEARLY was not not trying to place blame on the shop! If the mount was bad before and the recent work just improved engine efficiency, causing the pre-existing problem to be manifest, then that clearly wouldn’t have been the shop’s fault, right?

So your suspicions and accusations are not only unfounded, they’re also illogical.

Furthermore, I don’t believe “stuff just fails” is the only answer here. There might be a logical explanation for what happened, and I’m simply trying to understand.

Sorry if my posting offended you. But I’d like to ask you to please refrain from personal accusations. Thank you.

[enargins]

@eddo OK, thanks for the information. That’s helpful.

[enargins]

@TwinTurbo

I would at least give them the opportunity to see if they dislodged or forgot to reinstall some connection when they did the work. Considering the age of the parts, a vacuum hose may have cracked from all the movement during the gasket replacement.

Yeah, definitely having them look at it. Hopefully they’ll find the problem. And hopefully it won’t be a big issue.

That’s a good thought about the vacuum hose, etc. I guess we’ll see.

Thanks!

[keith]

The shop is right about not needing to be retorqued. On some vehicles, if the head gasket is replaced, it needs to be retorqued but with so many vehicles today that use stretch to yield head bolts, that is not needed.

I doubt the shop did anything wrong and something else is happening. Most things that would cause a very rough idle will set a check engine light.

The 3.3 is a Volvo design engine and is very ruggedly designed. It is a traditional cam in block OHV engine.

Without a check engine light, if a code check doesn’t reveal any codes (CEL burned out), then the possibilities are limited. Motor mounts come to mind, balance shaft belt/chain broken (not sure if this engine has a balance shaft), valve adjustment needed (should have been checked when the valve cover gasket was replaced) or a burned exhaust valve that was caused by a leaking exhaust manifold gasket.

[Mustangman]

@enargins

I don’t 100% trust this shop’s competence anymore

Then why are you doing business with them? I’d suggest doing business with a shop you do trust.

@enargins

about whether the work done could have caused an existing problem to manifest itself CLEARLY was not not trying to place blame on the shop

Considering you asked questions about that very link 5 times and got 8 answers from different posters saying either No or unlikely… Posters who can’t even see your car or experience your vibration!

@enargins

suspicions and accusations are not only unfounded, they’re also illogical

I feel this conclusion is completely logical, especially since you admitted you don’t trust the shop. What other conclusion could I draw?

@enargins

Furthermore, I don’t believe “stuff just fails” is the only answer here. There might be a logical explanation for what happened, and I’m simply trying to understand.

Given you’ve come to this site and asked the question and gotten those answers from DIY newbies to journeyman mechanics to degreed engineers, and the fact that you admit to knowing nothing about cars, it doesn’t seem you want to understand.

So good luck with your repairs.

[keith]

@Mustangman

and the fact that you admit to knowing nothing about cars, it doesn’t seem you want to understand.

He is new here so has not had the time to figure out who are experienced and knowledgeable mechanics and hobbyist vs the inexperienced and less knowledgeable ones. I think he does want to understand but is getting some conflicting info.

@enargins, @Mustangman is one of the several trusted sources that have replied to you. @Tester, @db4690, @TwinTurbo and of course I like to think of myself all have a history of good advice. Same for @Barkydog but I didn’t like his response on this thread, but thats just me.

[Nevada_545]

@keith

He is new here so has not had the time to figure out who are experienced and knowledgeable mechanics and hobbyist vs the inexperienced and less knowledgeable ones.

New? He has been here for 8 years and 17 threads.

[keith]

Oops, my bad. Maybe he is slow to figure that out.

[enargins]

@Mustangman

@enargins

I don’t 100% trust this shop’s competence anymore

Then why are you doing business with them? I’d suggest doing business with a shop you do trust.

Please note the word “anymore” in my statement.

Considering you asked questions about that very link 5 times and got 8 answers from different posters saying either No or unlikely… Posters who can’t even see your car or experience your vibration!

I asked once and I clarified once. I guess you have trouble reading or are prone to wild exaggerations.

I feel this conclusion is completely logical, especially since you admitted you don’t trust the shop. What other conclusion could I draw?

So, according to you, asking a question about whether something that wouldn’t have been the shop’s fault was me trying to get the shop to do free work for me is “completely logical.”

And me saying I don’t have 100% confidence in the shop anymore proves that I’m somehow trying to get them to do free work for something that wouldn’t have been their fault is also “completely logical.”

Yeah, I’m sure in your own mind all of that makes sense.

Given you’ve come to this site and asked the question and gotten those answers from DIY newbies to journeyman mechanics to degreed engineers, and the fact that you admit to knowing nothing about cars, it doesn’t seem you want to understand.

An actual reading of this thread shows that people have provided ideas about other possibilities besides “it’s just a coincidence because it’s an old car.” Again, reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.

[enargins]

@keith : Thank you so much for kind words!

@Nevada_545 : Yes, I created the account a long time ago, and have been involved in a few threads over the years (an average of 2 per year, according the stats you posted). But that doesn’t make me a regular, nor someone who interacts with the responders regularly.

So, yeah, Keith is correct. I don’t know who’s expert and who’s not. But, either way, I’m open to all ideas, and am simply responding to what people are posting – again, in an effort to understand.

I’ve found in the past that sometimes a shop can’t diagnose a problem, but another shop can. Or a forum user might have an insight.

Years ago I had a problem with my car that the shop mechanic (different shop) couldn’t figure out. It was a check engine code that made no sense. I googled the error code and my make/model and I found someone who had posted years before about the same issue with the same model car. I emailed his solution to the shop manager and he shared it with the mechanic, who tried it, and it solved the problem!

So sometimes solutions come from one place, sometimes from another. Someone may be an experienced mechanic and may give an answer about what he thinks is probably the cause, whereas a less experienced person might share something that could be the cause. And it could turn out that the less likely solution is it.

So, again, I’m simply looking to understand, in case the shop can’t find the problem, so that I have some other ideas/understanding.

I appreciate that it’s an “old car” and “things happen.” And that might be it. It could just be a big coincidence. Or it could be that there is an actual cause. So I’m just trying to understand what it could be, and, again, am open to anyone’s ideas, whether experienced or not.

I build databases for a living, and I’m fairly knowledgeable in my area. Others see me that way as well. Yet there have been times where I offered a solution to a newbie who posted in a forum, and yet someone with far less experience than me shared with them a better solution. It happens. Answers come from all different places.

[Mustangman]

@enargins

I asked once and I clarified once. I guess you have trouble reading or are prone to wild exaggerations.

From the original post…

@enargins

So, I just had the valve cover gaskets and the exhaust manifold gaskets in my 2003 Dodge Caravan SE (3.3L flex fuel engine) replaced. After a bit the car started experiencing a rough idle, where the car would vibrate when idling.

And re-question number 1

@enargins

So, basically, if the car is vibrating at idle (and the vibrations are VERY pronounced!) that would probably mean that they didn’t properly torque the bolts in the first place, right?

And re-question number 2

@enargins

As I just posted right before your comment, if the car is vibrating at idle (and the vibrations are VERY pronounced!) that would probably mean that they didn’t properly torque the bolts in the first place, right?

And re-question number 3

@enargins

Well, that could be. Is it possible that the mount might have gotten damaged when they did the recent work? I’ve had the car for 17 years, and I’ve never felt any vibrations at all, not even slight vibrations.

And re-question number 4

@enargins

Here’s a question. As noted I’ve had the car for 17 years, and I’ve never felt any vibrations at all, not even slight vibrations.

If the engine mount had been loose prior to the repairs, is it possible that the repairs (replacing valve cover gasket, manifold gasket, and cat) could cause the vibrations, though they weren’t felt before?

And finally re-question number 5

@enargins

So my question was – if the mount had previously been bad, then could the work done have caused the situation with the bad mount to be MANIFEST, though it might not have been manifest before, even if the work itself didn’t cause the problem.

Note this…

@enargins

Please note the word “anymore” in my statement.

This did not arrive until post number 27 but this appeared at post 6 and the one below it at post 23. Certainly seem like you are going back to a shop you didn’t trust until post 27.

@enargins

I just dropped it off tonight. They’re going to look at it in the morning.

@enargins

And, yes, I did take it back to the shop. They’re going to look at it today.

@enargins

And me saying I don’t have 100% confidence in the shop anymore proves that I’m somehow trying to get them to do free work for something that wouldn’t have been their fault is also “completely logical.”

I never posted that. I posted what is below at post number 24, 3 posts before you even mentioned you had no confidence in the shop. That "reading comprehension jab is pointy at both ends.

@Mustangman

You keep posting the same question again and again even while getting the same answer from different posters…

Stuff just fails, especially on a 20 year old Chrysler.

This leads me to believe you are hoping to justfy asking for free repair work from this shop. Give up, you aren’t going to get justification from us.

[enargins]

About posting 5 times vs. posting once and clarifying once, I wrote:

If the engine mount had been loose prior to the repairs, is it possible that the repairs (replacing valve cover gasket, manifold gasket, and cat) could cause the vibrations, though they weren’t felt before?

@eddo then made a comment about that, and I replied to his comment, clarifying what I meant.

So that was one post and one clarification (about whether the increased engine efficiency might have caused an already loose mount to then be manifest).

RIGHT AFTER THAT, you wrote:

You keep posting the same question again and again even while getting the same answer from different posters

So I assumed you were referring to the question I had just asked (about whether the increased engine efficiency caused a possibly already-existing problem with the mount to be manifest).

Since it seems you WEREN’T talking about that particular question, but were talking about the post in general, I’d, again, say you’re wrong. I didn’t post the same question over and over again (though I realize you’d like to over-simplify it as being the “same question”).

Question 1 (post 1): Do valve cover gaskets or exhaust manifold gaskets need retightening after being replaced?

Question 2 (post 4; repeated at post 6 because of replies crossing each other): Since they don’t need retightening, does that mean that they didn’t tighten them properly in the first place?

Question 3 (post 17): Is it possible that the mount got damaged when they did the recent work?

Question 4 (post 21): Is it possible that the mount was already bad, but the increased engine efficiency from the repairs caused the already-existing problem to manifest)?

As anyone can see, those were four completely different questions, which I asked along the way as this issue was being discussed with people and different questions came to mind. Only one question was repeated.

Right after Question 4 (post 21) is when you wrote:

You keep posting the same question again and again even while getting the same answer from different posters…

So, again, you’re completely wrong.

~~

Re. going back to the shop, you wrote:

This did not arrive until post number 27 but this appeared at post 6 and the one below it at post 23. Certainly seem like you are going back to a shop you didn’t trust until post 27.

and then provided quotes to “prove” that I was going back to the shop that I “no longer have 100% confidence in anymore.”

Yes, I went back to the shop. Because they did the work. So I brought it back there in case it was something related to the work they did, so they can correct it.

But if they say, “No, it’s not related to anything we did. It’s a new thing,” then I’ll say, “Thank you very much” and take it to a different shop, because I “no longer have 100% confidence in them.”

~~

I wrote:

And me saying I don’t have 100% confidence in the shop anymore proves that I’m somehow trying to get them to do free work for something that wouldn’t have been their fault is also “completely logical.”

Then you wrote:

I never posted that. I posted what is below at post number 24, 3 posts before you even mentioned you had no confidence in the shop. That "reading comprehension jab is pointy at both ends.

This all started when you posted (at post 24):

This leads me to believe you are hoping to justfy asking for free repair work from this shop.

I then replied to you in part (post 26):

Furthermore, my last question – about whether the work done could have caused an existing problem to manifest itself CLEARLY was not not trying to place blame on the shop! If the mount was bad before and the recent work just improved engine efficiency, causing the pre-existing problem to be manifest, then that clearly wouldn’t have been the shop’s fault, right?

So your suspicions and accusations are not only unfounded, they’re also illogical.

You replied (post 31):

I feel this conclusion is completely logical, especially since you admitted you don’t trust the shop. What other conclusion could I draw?

I then replied to you (post 35):

So, according to you, asking a question about whether something that wouldn’t have been the shop’s fault was me trying to get the shop to do free work for me is “completely logical.”

And me saying I don’t have 100% confidence in the shop anymore proves that I’m somehow trying to get them to do free work for something that wouldn’t have been their fault is also “completely logical.”

Note that I responded to BOTH of your points.

In the first paragraph, I replied to your point that I was trying to get the shop to do free work by asking if the increased engine efficiency caused an already-existing problem to manifest. I said that accusation is illogical.

In the second paragraph, I replied to your defense of your logic, where you wrote “especially since you admitted you don’t trust the shop,” like as though that has anything to do with anything.

So I said that that comment (that I didn’t have complete confidence the shop anymore) having anything to do with your false accusation that I was trying to get them to do free work, was completely illogical.

~~

Are we done yet?

[Tester]

And I thought War and Peace was a long read.

Tester

[enargins]

@Tester

And I thought War and Peace was a long read.

If you have trouble sleeping tonight, just open this thread and have a read.