@the same mountainbike:
Yes, the engine can shut off if the transponder gets out of range - that was a problem Nissan had when they came out with their push button start… cell phones were interfering with the transponder, causing engines to shut off…
Ouch!
So I guess they have problems beyond the obvious.
I think I’ll stick to keys for now.
“Yes, the engine can shut off if the transponder gets out of range .”
So, if I had one of these Nissans, and I came home to unload groceries while letting my engine idle for 2 minutes or so (with the intent of then driving to my next errand/destination/appointment) the engine might shut off when I entered my house?
I had previously thought that I should reconsider my aversion to Nissans after my brother’s terrible experience many years ago with a Datsun SPL-310. However, it appears that, while their technology has become much more high-tech, I still wouldn’t want one!
The thing is, I am finding most cars now have this. I don’t want it and I think they should have it as an optional add on, not a standard. I might have to keep my 14 year old car going forever if this is the case.
"My '49 Ford had a push-button starter on the dash. 
"
So did my '54 Ford pickup truck. What will they reinvent next? Foot operated starter pedals?
I have a '93 Nissan Hardbody with 237k on it and I am currently working on keeping it running forever. This dependable vehicle has a manual transmission, manual windows, manual door locks, limited electronics and is easy and inexpensive to maintain. Why can’t auto manufacturers gives us this anymore?
most likely all the safety equipment and sensors for them.
I have keyless on my Mazda, but instead of a push-button, they give me a little plastic thing in place of the key hole. So, all I have to do is get in the car, reach up on the steering column and turn the plastic thing to start the car like normal. I can remove the plastic piece should anything go wrong, so that’s good to know.
Agator82
Thanks, now I won’t feel so bad if I just keep fixing what is broken each time. I figure that before long I will have a new car inside.
My '49 Ford had a push-button starter on the dash. "
So did my '54 Ford pickup truck. What will they reinvent next? Foot operated starter pedals?
Yep! My '48 Buick had the starter under the gas pedal. To start the car, you turned on the key and pressed the gas pedal to the floor. The engine started with a Varooooom.
"My '49 Ford had a push-button starter on the dash. "
As I recall, Dad’s '48 Studebaker had the starter switch under the clutch pedal. You pushed the clutch pedal all the way to the floor to start, cleverly preventing you from accidentally starting in gear with the clutch engaged.
The real interesting starter switch placement was on the Nash from 1950 through 1957 and the Ramblers through 1957 equipped with the automatic transmissions. To start these cars, one put the shift lever in neutral and pulled it toward the steering wheel. The 1958 and later Ramblers with the pushbutton automatic transmissions started by pressing the neutral/start button.
@VDC - I’m not sure how Nissan solved their issue… they may have reprogrammed things to not demand the engine and key communicate once the engine is started… or they may have changed the frequency at which they check for the key…
It will make a crooks job easier. I will almost guarantee before long someone will either crack the code or will have some kind of reader that will read and transmit the code.
If you remember not too long ago they was saying the same thing with the tap and go credit cards, how the tap and go was so secure, well, I’m already hearing report of CC fraud where the crook only had to walk by you to get your CC information. They are now sell card protectors to prevent that.
So I’m betting before too much longer there will be a reader out there that will capture the data stored on the fob and they will use that to steal your car, and all they will have to do is walk by you.
My opinions are subject to change with new facts.
I don’t find that scenario to be any less secure than a car with manual locks and an old fashioned ignition. There the thief doesn’t even have to walk past you. He just breaks the window, has it started in less than 20 seconds, and drives away.
Plus, credit cards and transponder keys are not comparable. Credit cards still (appallingly) store their data unencrypted on the card. That’s why crooks with credit card readers can get your card info - it’s out in the open. Transponder keys use rolling code syncs that change every time you start the car. Quite a bit more tricky to crack that.
But when they break the window and hot wire a car which isn’t as easy as it used to be, they get hopefully get noticed. With a sniffer all they have to do is walk up to the car, and it unlocks the door, the slid in and push the little start button and off they go, would you notice that? That would draw less attention than picking up the car with a tow truck. And even with “old fashioned ignition” they have to break the steering wheel lock, or pop the lock out which on some cars would disable it.
And at least one rolling code has been broken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KeeLoq#Vulnerability
From your article: “Microchip introduced in 1996[5] a version of KeeLoq ICs which use a 60-bit seed. If a 60-bit seed is being used, an attacker would require approximately 100 days of processing on a dedicated parallel brute force attacking machine before the system is broken.[6]”
100 days? If a thief is willing to spend 100 days stealing my car. . .
Plus, the old-fashioned ignition was easily broken by the average street thug with little-to-no intelligence or skills. Modern cars require a hacker and, as your article said, at least 100 days to steal. That eliminates the street thug, and leaves your car vulnerable only to the professional big-time car thieves, who are going to use a quick-pick tow truck instead of fooling with trying to actually drive your car.
If you use brute force, that is you try every combination I wouldn’t be trying every combination, I would be using ONE that one your fob has stored, it would just grab the code. Also from the article
It made KeeLoq “code grabbers” quite popular among most car thieves, although some of them use FPGA-based devices to break KeeLoq-based keys by brute force within about two weeks thanks to the reduced key length in the real world implementations.
To be fair KeeLog has said they fixed that problem, But in the real world if you have to transmit a code, I can steal it, I don’t even have to understand the code, I only need to re-transmit it, and accept the new code the car sends me.
I do have a question for you, how many times did you notice a person in a parking lot getting into a car and driving off, vs a tow truck picking up a car in a parking lot. A tow truck is something you notice, its something out of the ordinary. A nice dress guy or girl getting into a car, unless she is really good looking (I’m a guy) I don’t notice.
Yes snatch and tow is the quickest and easiest way to steal a car, but as they make computers smaller and faster, and as crooks understand how the fobs work then it will become easier to steal a car. I mean as a crook how nice would it be to walk up to a car you want to steal, and have it unlock the doors for you, and you only have to push a button to start it?
“Yes snatch and tow is the quickest and easiest way to steal a car, but as they make computers smaller and faster, and as crooks understand how the fobs work then it will become easier to steal a car.”
That’s ONLY because the car manufacturers allow them to by NOT encrypting the code.
If a good encryption system is built with a 64bit encryption that changes every time…it would take the fastest super computer weeks if not months to randomly send all the codes to the car. Reading the transmitted data from the FOB wouldn’t do you any good because you’d it would change the next time based on an predetermined algorithm.
9 out of 10 vehicles on the National Insurance Crime Bureau top ten most stolen car list for 2009 are pre-transponder vehicles. Why would thieves be more interested in 15 year old cars? That data supports the effectiveness of modern transponder ignition systems.
I do have a question for you, how many times did you notice a person in a parking lot getting into a car and driving off, vs a tow truck picking up a car in a parking lot.
So you’re saying that every time you see a tow truck towing a car away, you call the cops? Who cares if people notice? People assume the tow truck is towing the car for a reason. Illegally parked. It won’t start. Whatever. “Damn dude there’s a tow truck, he must be stealin’ cars!” is way down on the list of things people think when they see tow trucks. And if the thief is really worried about arousing suspicion, just put a “Jake’s Repossession” sticker on the door. Problem solved. They’re towing a deadbeat’s car.