Predicting Longevity by Make

Maintenance/Repairs
41

Joseph, you touched on an important variable in car life; “maintenance mentality”. I agree that a person who buys an economy car they can barely afford often skimps on maintenance when it competes with dental work for the kids.

I was always puzzled by the difference in reliability reported by Consumer Reports when they listed the 4 cookie cutter GM large cars; Oldsmobile, Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac. Buick was always the best, followed by Oldsmobile, the Chevrolet, and Pontiac was always the worst; often considerably worse than Chevrolet, a virually identical car!

After looking at the buyer demographics and advertising campaigns, it became obvious that the target buyers were very different.

Buick owners were generally conservative, law-abiding types who drove carefully and most likely adhered to the maintenance schedules. Oldsmobile owners were a little sportier, but a lot like Buick owners. Chevrolet owners put a lot of miles on their cars, were average family types and had less money for maintenace. So Chevies were “less reliable”.

Pontiac, by contrast, sold ATTITUDE and PERFORMANCE. Pontiac buyers are more rebellious, self-absorbed, and have different priorities than religiously doing maintenance. Needles to say, there are exceptions to this general staements. But it does explain a lot.

Using this reasoning we get really puzzled by Volkswagens, whose owners pay more for their cars than buyers of US compacts, are knowledgeable, and presumably do regular maintenance. With all this tender loving care, Volswagens should not break down and live forever. Yet the average Volkwagen owner has more problems and spends more money on maintenance and repairs than the owners of US compacts. The obvious answer here is that these cars are not well engineered and parts and service are over-priced. So the term "German Engineering " takes on a whole new meaning.

This reasoning also explains how many of our posters get fabulously long and reliable life out of very average cars, such a Ford Taurus, and why BMW owners always seem to have expensive prioblems.

42

This reasoning makes sense to me. Years ago, I had a Ford Maverick that was on Consumer Reports list as being not reliable. On the other hand, the Mercury Comet, an identical car, had an average reliability rating. I wrote to Consumer Reports about the discrepancy and the reply was “that’s the way the data came out”. I did find out later that the average Mercury owner was six or seven years above that of the Ford owner. I always feel better if I can call the previous owner of a used car that I purchase and try to size up how the car may have been driven.

The original VW Beetles seemed to be on the road a long time. However, most repairs could be made using kitchen utensiles and parts were readily available and not too expensive. One could replace an engine in a 10 year old VW Beetle for a lotg less money than a 10 year old Cadillac.

43

Yes, I remember the Comet. Ours, a 1971, had the 200 cu. inch 6, and very little else. We bought it with 17,000 miles on it, and gave it to my mother-in-law when it reached 50,000. Although good daily transportation, the heater core failed, the front suspension squeaked constantly, the exhaust system had to be replaced, the flap controlling the warm air for engine warmup failed, and a number of other irritating things. The bright orange paint job attracted considerable attention, however.

My mother-law drove it for 5 more years; by then the body had considerable rust. The engine and transmission were bullet-proof, however.

44

I got one word for you: Cuba. They are still driving around in chunks or iron made in the 1950s. Well some Russian cars too I guess. Meanwhile I put 200k+ on my old 1984 Subaru with it’s pushrod, gear-driven cam, flat 4 and my 1994 Saturn with a dohc chain drive cams has about the same. The difference is that the Saturn has a lot less to rust away with it’s composite body panels. Any car, (with the possible exception of certain French and Italian makes) will go forever if given enough attention. The thing is that people tend to neglect their cars. An excellent case in point is the aforementioned Saturn. As the cams are chain driven there is no timing belt to break but the chain tensioner is tensioned by oil pressure and it will stick if oil changes are not done at the recommended 3000 mile interval. It gets gummed up and the engine jumps timing and as it is an interference engine it destroys itself. This led to many terrible reviews of this otherwise excellent engine by boneheads who never changed the oil. All machines break. It’s a simply fact of physics. Entropy. To give them longevity we need to merely to build them heavily and intelligently. However, they loose efficiency when built heavily. It’s a trade-off. I think that if Subaru had adapted their pushrod / gear driven cam to modern fuel injection it would have done well despite being noisy and underpowered but the quest for power and silence won out.

45

You fail to mention if your Lexus LS 400 has required $500 timing belt and water pump changes every 60,000 miles and another coming up soon at 240K miles

I haven’t seen a 60k timing belt change recommendation on a car in over 10 years. Most are either 90k or 105k. The Toyota/Lexus is 105k miles.

And timing belts while may be expensive are still maintenance items. It is something to consider when pricing out maintenance cost. But if you do the work yourself (like I do)…the cost is minimal…usually less then $50.

46

My Maverick was a 1971, but it had the 250 cubic inch 6. It was as reliable as booze at an Irish wake, but had an interior that made a school bus seem luxurious and it rode like a wheelbarrow. I finally traded the car when I found that I was spending more on preparation H from driving the car than I was on upkeep of the car. I had the same front suspension creak, so I cut holes in the fender liner and put grease fittings on the offending bushings. That did the trick. I guess this was a common Maverick/Comet repair.

47

Agree the Maverick/Comet had the worst seats of any car I’ve ever owned or driven. I had to use a seat cushion to get some spinal support. My moth-in-law solved the problem with a thick sheepskin cover; the same as used by airline pilots on long flights.

Ford set a record in cheapening up things by having an aluminum ignition key. On a holiday trip in Duluth, Minnesota, the key broke off in the ignition, locking the steering column as well. That weeeknd the Ford dealers parts guys were on strike, so it took a while to get a new steering column lock installed. We saw a lot of Duluth.

48

We have never, to my knowlege, replaced either the timimg belt or water pump. I don’t think we ever paid more than $800 for the periodic service checks so it would be hard, but not impossible to include the big dollar items you mention without notice. The only real hit that I can think of is about $500 for brakes, when everything is needed.

Yes we live in the sunbelt, so that certainly helps.

49

My 1987 Volvo is so good, my wfe prefers it. It has 2000,000+ miles. It does not use oil in between changes. My most important was the alternator failed less than 50 miles ago

50

Joseph, you hit on the double whammy that hits cheap cars with respect to life expectancy. Like longevity in people, you need good genes, good lifestyle, and good nutrition to live long.

When I buy a used car from a private party, I spend as much time interviewing the owner as I spend testing and inspecting the car.

If the owner of a cheap car has little or no budget for maintenance, the car will not live long, regardless of how well designed it is. If the design is weak, and parts are expensive (because of low volume sales) the life is very short.

Most “captive imports”, such as British Fords, GM’s Vauxhalls, Chrysler Simcas, fit that category, and vanished very quickly. As did the Chevy Vega, Ford Pinto, Hyundai Pony and other forgettable losers.

On the other hand, the original VW Beetle sold in large quatities, was a sturdy design, and was easy and cheap to service. I still see some of the original ones from the 70s occasionally.

But expensive and unreliable cars also have short lives; at some point the repair bills will exceed the value, and the owner will send it to the reycler. A colleague of mine once owned and XKE Jaguar. At 60,000 miles nearly all items such as alternator, starter, electrical, had been replaced TWICE! He ended up doing a lot of his own maintenance, but it became a real chore, and he finally sold the car fo very little money.

51

Your Lexus is generally acknowledged to be the best car made since the early 1980s Mercedes E class turbdiesels, probably one one the best cars ever built. However, as other point out, if your car has a timing belt, the required replacement cycle for both V6 and V8 models is 72 months or 90,000 miles. That’s what my Toyota handbook says.The rubber in a Lexus timing belt IS THE SAME AS THE RUBBER IN A LEXUS BELT!

In other words, at 225,000 miles you are living on borrowed time if you have a timing belt and although Toyota and Honda belts have a good safety factor, you are on the last of its 9 lives! Please consult your owners manual and check for timing belt replacement.

52

My 1987 Volvo is so good, my wfe prefers it. It has 2000,000+ miles.

One too many ZEROS. Or does it really have 2 million miles.

53

It could have two million miles if it has a diesel engine.

54

The Yaris is made in Japan; otherwise, I probably wouldn’t consider it either!

55

The Guinness Book of World Records actually had a Volvo, a P-1800 set the record with 2.1 million miles! No info on how often the engine was rebuilt, but it does testify to the solid quality of the old style Volvos.

56

Consumers Reports agrees: Toyota used to be at the top. Given the condition of my 09 Tacoma, I can see the downhill slide. This one will never reach the level of satisfaction as any of my older trucks (Toyota) or mileage. What are they smoking out there in Fremont or where is the quality control administrator?

57

It depends…I do all my own maintenance and all my iron is US made. I get tired of them before they are wore out, plus my wife likes new stuff.
The deal is…someday they all break…and will the Swift repair be cheaper than the Ford repair…Who knows?
If you are gonna keep one a long time…and a lot of miles…you need to maintain it well from the start, no matter what brand.
My opinion is : run good gas, good oil and filters, and run it like you stole it.
Regards,
Paul

58

Agree most car owners are too busy to get involved in the details of making a car run reliably forever. Let alone calculating the best time/mileage to get rid of it.

We have only ever taken two cars to the scrap yard (a 1965 Dodge Dart and a 1977 Dodge Colt), since they were not worth selling. My wife has a number of single female friends who often ask my advice. The best advice I can give them is:

  1. Buy a car with a reasonably good repair record, and one that is sold in sufficient volume to ensure an ongoing supply of parts and the interst of independent mechanics…

  2. Perform regular mainteance according to the book. When in doubt over-maintain.

  3. Don’t baby the car; take it out for a good fast run regularly.

  4. When it finaaly becomes unrelaible, and you start missing work becase of it, trade or sell it. At that stage, it does not owe you anything.

59

I currently have a 2003 Saturn Vue with 113000 miles on it. This past year I have had thousands of dollars of repairs and am considering a new car (I was one of those people who didn’t do a good job on the regular maintenance!). I was wondering if anyone knows advantages of longevity between the newwer Vue, Toyota RAV 4, and Honda CRV. I am leaning towards the Toyota because of the good reputation, but I actually like the new Vues better. Thanks!

60

Toyota no longer means the sort of quality it did with older models!

I purchased my 2002 Toyota RAV4 from my dealer?it was his demo car and my ECM(Engine Control Module) and Transmission issues just popped up at 107,000 miles.

I had owned another Toyota previously, a Camry, and got 225,000 worry-free miles out of it. In fact my friend has a Toyota Celica she is still driving with 275,000 miles on it!!!

Out of the clear-blue two days ago, the RAV4 check engine light came on for about two hours, then went out, but the shifting then became erratic. I have serviced this vehicle faithfully per Toyota’s prescribed schedule since I purchased it and expected to get another 100,000 more miles, but, my dealership, where it has been serviced forever, said it was going to cost over $1,200 for a new Engine Control Module (which is also not warrantied?what is with that?!?!?!?) and even if I replace just the ECM, it still may not work with the old transmission, so it was recommended that I replace the transmission too for another $3,500 because the defective ECM has destroyed the transmission.

In trying to develop some alternate strategies to approach the problem I suggested that we drop the transmission to physically inspect it for damage so then we could isolate the repair to just the ECM, but, as the dealership service manager told me, in their experiences with this problem, which they have had several encounters with on the RAV4 as well as Avalons, the only solution seems to be to undergo this complete and costly major repair.

And, with the market value for the car at only $6,000, it almost makes more sense to trade it in and get a new vehicle.

After pricing some of the vehicles on their lot as a reference point (I really need a pick-up with 4wd now more than the RAV4 2wd anyway) I had them reset the ECM to see if it might correct itself?like rebooting a computer, you know, to just get me home and to buy a little more time to determine an appropriate course of action. If you are having this sort of issue with your Toyota, don?t get your hopes up, I got home ok, but the Transmission is still slipping.

I had never realized that there were ever any serious problems like this with the Toyota product line until I went online and ?Googled ?Toyota Transmission problems? you will be amazed at how many of their products and models, Rav4?s, Avalons, Tundras, even 2008 Camrys are plagued with similar transmission malfunction issues. I encourage anyone who is having transmission problems with their Toyota to contribute your comments and experiences here. Perhaps such a hue and cry will get Toyota to address their quality issues more realistically and fairly. By the way, I am an avid listener to Tom and Ray’s show!