Pay Raise/Rate Reduction

What of them? If that’s the best that you can do then that’s the best you can do. Maybe that’s your station in life. If your intelligence, ability, and opportunity doesn’t allow for you to do anything further, then that’s where you’ll be. There’s no shame in that, and I certainly don’t look down on anyone in that position. What I do have a problem with is people in that position not owning it, thinking that they should be able to live independently or support themselves, or their children, in a position like that.

For a specific example, the guy I was paying $17/hr as an auto shop assistant could certainly have made more if he progressed, learned more, improved his abilities. But he couldn’t. I offered to send him to school with the shop paying the tuition, knowing full well that no matter how hard he tried or applied himself he would never progress past the lube rack. He’s just not smart enough or able enough. So he’s stuck never progressing past $17, and if that’s not enough for him to live then that’s his issue, not the business’.

I disagree. I’m of the camp “From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.” But then again I spent a significant portion of my life as a flat-rate auto mechanic or a commission-only auto mechanic. I admit there are faults with that pay structure, but there is a certain elegant simplicity about a worker being paid by how much he produces.

Funny you should say that. I suppose there’s a reason that when I completed my liberal arts degree I became an auto mechanic instead of a teacher, as I had originally planned. But tomorrow, after 30+ years as a mechanic, I begin my new career as an instructor.

I don’t know anything about the economics of where you live, so I can’t comment on whether or not that’s a fair wage. Understand that I’m not suggesting that someone who doesn’t want to / can’t hack improving themselves beyond base-level should get a 6 figure salary. But I am saying that a job is really the employee selling chunks of his life in pursuit of his employer’s goals. He’s not going to get that time back. His life won’t be extended because he’s employed. If I’m going to sell a huge chunk of my life to you, I expect to be compensated at least decently for it.

Beyond that, I’m simply saying that paying someone below a real living wage - by that I mean, they can afford a place to live, food, and other basic necessities, not a large TV and dinners out - simply shifts the cost burden to the rest of society. Walmart’s low wages just means that you and I are subsidizing Walmart’s payroll. And it seems silly to me that you and I - I’m no millionaire, and I suspect you aren’t one either - should be on the hook to subsidize the wages of a company that takes in half a trillion dollars per year.

The problem is that “simple” is not synonymous with “good,” “fair,” or even “smart.” If Ford (see? still talking cars! Nothing to see here! :wink: ) were to try to sell a car today using simple Model T technology they’d be laughed out of their own showroom. Sometimes - often actually - simple is not the appropriate strategy.

Flat-rate / commission-only is simple, yes, but again, it increases the likelihood that I will be helping pay someone’s salary. I don’t want to pay other peoples’ salaries. That’s not the direction my tax dollars should be going.

If you can’t afford the lease/rent on your shop, then your business is not viable. If you can’t afford to buy the equipment you need to fix cars, then your business is not viable. Similarly, if you can’t afford to pay your workers a wage that they can live on without requiring me and thousands of others to supplement their income, then your business should not be considered viable. If that means you need to raise prices in order to cover higher wages, so be it. I can afford to spend an extra $5 or $10 for an oil change. So could others if wages were generally higher. However, in many cases, especially corporate cases, corporations could easily afford to cut into their billions in annual profits in order to pay their workers decently. I certainly find the “we can’t afford it / we’d have to raise prices” argument specious coming from a corporation that pays its CEO millions every year, plus stock options, plus a guaranteed golden parachute that will make him rich beyond most of our wildest dreams even if he totally biffs the job.

Hehe. Now we’re getting into another area that I suspect you and I will end up agreeing on; colleges are ripping people off. They’ll happily sell you a liberal arts degree, telling you that the world values creative people. And then you graduate and discover the dude who spent 1/8 of your tuition going to the technical college is vastly out-earning you as an apprentice plumber. But that’s a whole 'nother can of worms.

At the core, we have screwed up as a society by pretending that things happen in a vacuum. That shop assistant you talked about - if $17/hour isn’t enough for him to get by on (again, no idea - he could pull it off - just - where I live) we act like that is happening in isolation, and that he will not then go down to the welfare office and apply for benefits. We pretend we will not pay for part of the income he needs to get by. Not a huge deal with your single shop assistant, but when you expand that idea to the millions of people who are being paid low wages and applying for taxpayer assistance as a result, you realize that we tax payers are spending one hell of a lot of money to keep his wages low.

There’s a dirty little truth in the homelessness problem that it would be cheaper to just give homeless people a place to live than it is to build and staff shelters, etc. But we don’t do it because, honestly, we’d rather spend more to make sure that those people don’t enjoy the same satisfaction out of life that we do. We’re in a similar trap with the wages game. We’ll happily pay significantly more in taxes in order to subsidize their wages instead of expecting employers to pay a living wage. Why? We’d end up saving money if we required employers to pay appropriately, but really at the end of the day, that would prevent people from the embarrassment of having to jump through hoops to receive government assistance, and there’s something ugly in our nature that secretly relishes that concept.

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I know a fine kid named Andy. He is a mongoloid and works at MacDonalds. Happy as a clam. He should not make the same as the lawyer down the street and doesn’t expect to. There are some countries that don’t agree with this system and most of them are dismal failures.

We have been heading down this road of fewer and fewer people paying any significant tax on their income with fewer and fewer paying the full load. (Forget the sales, gas, property, tax argument and park permits) It’s always easy to spend other people’s money for the good of everyone but in reality that doesn’t work very well. Except maybe Norway and Alaska that have a good income from oil to share.

I don’t know anyone who disagrees with that.

Many people are paying less income tax because they are making less. And lets NOT forget Sales, gas and property tax. Those taxes have been on the rise and have drastically outpaced income by large margins. Taxes are not what is keeping poor people poor.

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Such as some of the richest people in the USA…

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A lot of the jobs I worked at had paid training . . . if the employee wanted it

And the employees were told about these opportunities, so nobody could claim ignorance

My public sector job will train people for advancement . . . if they ask for it

After that, they still have to ace the interview(s) and any applicable hands-on exams to determine how to rank the applicants on the list

One guy did a Class A on his own dime and was reimbursed

My union will pay for college degrees . . . at selected institutions and for selected degrees

@db4690 I respect employers who provide pathways for the employees who want to advance.
I believe the best investment one can make is in one own self. If offered advance training or education, then invest your time in it. I had a contract teaching position at a state university back in 1965. My salary was $6000 for the school year. I paid the tuition and took graduate courses for credit with a senior professor in the department. I was teaching a full load of courses, but invested my spare time in taking courses. We lived in an inexpensive apartment. I didn’t drive a fancy car. My investment of my resources (time and money) paid off. When I went back to school for the next degree, the work I had done cut a year off my coursework. After completing my degree, I was hired back by the university where I began my career.
In the country school I attended through junior high school, I had to take agriculture classes in 7th and 8th grade. The agriculture teacher had a placard above the chalkboard that read “People who look ahead seldom fall behind”. If I was an auto mechanic today, I would look ahead at what is needed to repair and maintain EVs. I would certainly study electronics. I realized how little I know about hybrid vehicles when a friend called me and asked if I would jump start her Toyota Prius. I tried to jump the 12 volt battery with no results. I measured the voltage at this battery and it was 8.5 volts. My friend had an important event she had to attend, so I had her take my Sienna. She had the Prius towed to the Toyota dealership. She had driven 25:miles into town, so I reasoned that the 12 volt battery might not have been receiving a charge. However I had no idea how that battery was recharged. I did some reading and found that the 12 volt battery is charged through an inverter/converter system from the high voltage system. There is no alternator. I felt totally ignorant as the hybrids have been around almost 30 years. With the number of hybrid vehicles increasing and the EVs coming on-line, I think future mechanics will have to have electronic knowledge.
I think one of the failings in education is that students aren’t taught to look ahead and thinking to look ahead should begin in elementary school.

You sound like me walking through the shop. “The clock is relentless…I need 8 hours billed from each of you by 5:00 and it’s 10:30 now, how far along are you?..Tick tock tick tock gentlemen…”

What’s decently? I was paying a guy $17 and I don’t think he was worth that much. I asked him to mark the trash, recycling, and scrap barrels. He painted “TRAHS” on the trash cans. You want a living wage? Learn how to spell, that doesn’t cost anything. You’ve tried and you can’t spell? Then good luck living at the bottom of the barrel.

I’m going to turn your words around on you…If you can’t afford the lease/rent on your apartment, then your life is not viable. Sure, I can raise prices to make more money, and you can find a higher paying job to make more money. Now I can’t speak to the operation of the corporation that pays its CEO millions. But I can say as the former CEO of a small auto repair business, there was more than one year that my highest paid employee made more wages than I did as the business owner.

I have no doubt that my degree has helped me become a great mechanic and diagnostician.

Because we’re Americans with that rugged individual spirit. I come from a family of immigrants. Back around 1960, Dad had a bad marriage that ended in divorce, 2 young kids, a job that was stable but had no future. He was commiserating with a friend, desperate about how to build a better future. His friend said “What are you worried about? Your kids will always have food and clothes, the government will see to that. You’ll always have a roof over your head, the government will see to that. Your aching back will be taken care of. Stop worrying.” Dad told me that at that point he figured he might as well go to sleep and never wake up. To live a life without the responsibility to accomplish anything, without rising above the rest, not being able to live and die by your own successes and failures and no one else’s, was absolute misery and completely against his nature. Within 2 years he came to the US to seek and make his fortune.

Around the same time Mom’s family was living in the same country. One day they were told that they would have to move out of their flat to a larger more expensive one. Grandpa made more money than the rent control laws allowed for that size flat, so they would have to vacate it for another family that otherwise couldn’t afford housing. That led to them coming to the US.

Here they were free to succeed or fail without any interference. And Grandpa’s dream of owning a Buick finally came true, several times!

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Someone earning $35,000 a year is eligible for public assistance? Perhaps in some areas.

With public assistance it wouldn’t take much to raise this person to my level of earning. I do not need to live with a roommate and drive a 20-year-old car.

On the other hand, as a flat rate mechanic, I am scheduled to work 45 to 60 hours a week, this person only works 40 hours a week. With so much free time this young worker could easily work a second job for 20 hours a week to save money for a house.

Is everyone entitled to the same standard of living?

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Overly simplified, but the market should set wages somewhat. If I advertise an entry level job for $3/hr, no one’s even going to apply. If I advertise the same job for $12-$13/hr, I’ll get a few more people to apply - probably people that have knowledge and skills that fit the position. If I advertise it for $20/hr, I’ll get more applications - probably from a lot of people that have enough knowledge or skills that they could be doing something else, but if they can get my relatively high paying entry level job, why do something else?

I’m all for investing in employees and paying them enough to keep them happy. But the guy emptying the trash and sweeping the floor with no interest in learning anything else isn’t going to be the guy I invest in and try to keep.

Going to be difficult to define a living wage, too. A lot of that depends on how you live. Twenty years ago, I lived alone off the equivalent of $11/hour working for the state in a position that required a degree. It wasn’t easy making ends meet. The job, however, was pretty easy. I moved on to something else because I wanted more money, but there are still people doing that job and I’m not sure the pay is that great still. But apparently they want to do it. FWIW, teachers made a hell of a lot more than I did and had summers off lol.

I don’t want to start anything again but UPS is advertising $24 an hour for entry level drivers. Most other help wanted signs are in the $15-20 level with starting bonuses. Gone are the days of the $7.50 7-11 clerk. Freedom has a strange way of making corrections.

Your tax dollars are paying these.
costs, Good deal for the companies## Table 1: Share of working families enrolled in one or more public safety net program, 2015-2019 (States without a $15 minimum wage law in place)

Type of Worker All Full-time
All Workers 27% 24%
Affected Workers 47% 45%
Fast-Food Workers 65% 63%
Affected Fast-Food Workers 71% 72%
Childcare Workers 49% 47%
Affected Childcare Workers 55% 52%
Homecare Workers 62% 57%
Affected Homecare Workers 74% 68%
Note: “All” is defined as those who work at least 45 weeks/year and at least 10 hours/week; “full-time” is defined as those who work at least 45 weeks/year and at least 35 hours/week.

This is my first point of confusion with your arguments. You’re paying the kid who sweeps your shop $17. You aren’t really who we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the people paying minimum wage, which even after the increase that started in January is significantly below $17. Again, I don’t know anything about the economics of where you live, but around here, someone could scrape by on $17 an hour. It wouldn’t be luxurious, but then despite protestations to the contrary, or utter BS insinuations made elsewhere in this thread that we think the guy working the register at McDonalds should make the same as a lawyer, we aren’t asking for luxuries. We’re asking for these people to be able to exist at a minimum standard without us having to pay for it. If you were to pay your shop sweeper minimum wage, then I would have to help pay for his living expenses even though I am not your customer.

I’ll admit, that’s a sweetheart deal for business owners, in which they manage to get the government to force all of us to pay for your business whether we patronize it or not, but… Well, let’s just say that given it’s not our side who runs around yelling about how bad socialism is, that the other side insists on socialism for business owners is pretty ironic.

Were this even remotely true, you might have something to argue with. I mean, you’d still be wrong, but at least you’d be arguing with solid facts rather than Ayn-Randian fantasies that haven’t existed since the Wild West days. The Social Security Act was signed into law a generation before your parents immigrated here. When they showed up, the government already guaranteed they’d get an income stream in retirement. If they were so interested in being 100% responsible for their own success or failure, they should have stayed away, because they didn’t find what they were looking for. Oh, and Medicare and Medicaid came around 4 years after they got here, so I’m somewhat astonished they didn’t pack up and leave immediately, rugged 100% individualists that they were.

If it seems I’m being harsh, it’s mainly because I, along with many others, am thoroughly tired of spraining my eyeballs by rolling them so hard every time someone claims they or anyone else bootstrapped their way to success 100% on their own. Didn’t happen. Never happened. Never will. If you don’t believe that we need societal help in order to attain our standard of living, I invite you to move to a deserted island, cut off all contact with humanity, and then try to get rich. We’ll wait. :wink:

I would guess yes, in places like perhaps NYC or LA where rents are insane. But as I said several times earlier, we aren’t in general talking about the company whose lowest-paid employee is taking home $17 an hour.

No. Everyone is, or should be, entitled to a minimum standard of living if they are gainfully employed. It’s quite tiresome that this idea continually gets twisted into the lie that we want everyone to get equally rich.

Yep, another example of why unions are a good idea. UPS is a Teamsters shop, and they’re obligated to pay well. Interestingly, despite the fact that there are seasoned UPS drivers making 6 figures, they somehow manage to remain competitive with FedEx and the USPS. Huh! Guess higher wages don’t automatically drive a company into bankruptcy or cause sky-high uncompetitive prices. Who’d’a thunk!

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Well, it’s close. Minimum wage is $14. But let’s talk about $17. After federal and state income taxes, let’s say he takes home $2100/month. He finds a cheap 1bd apartment for $1000. That leaves $1100 for utilities, groceries, gas, insurance, clothing. It would be pretty tight to live on $250/week. So do I think $17 is a living wage? No, not really. That’s why these jobs are for people who don’t need or deserve a living wage.

Uncle Fred came to the US around the same time. He had 5 kids (my cousins) and didn’t make much money as a warehouse worker. With his income the family qualified for free school lunches. Nope, never gonna happen. This family doesn’t take handouts. We will feed ourselves. They also got to go to the doctor/dentist for free. Nope, again no handouts. Uncle Fred couldn’t afford a dentist here, so once a year he loaded the family into the station wagon and drove to Tijuana where he could get dental care for a fraction of the price.

Yeah, lot of good that does anybody. Dad died in 2020, spent the last 3 years of his life in the dementia care center. $6400/month, with every last penny coming out of my mother’s pocket. Not one dime of assistance from the government in any way. But the poor sap in the next bed who doesn’t have a pot to pee in gets a full free ride. Does that make me bitter? Yes. Mom and Dad worked their asses off to become successful only to have to pay for what someone else gets for free. Kinda takes away the incentive, doesn’t it?

Absolutely right. We all need to take care of each other. If we do, then we don’t need the government to do it. But we all also have to work for it, and we have to accept that some of us are just not able to achieve a living wage for ourselves. And we certainly have to realize that if we need more money we don’t just demand that the job pays more. We need to earn it. My auto shop helper at $17 was OK’d for 45 hrs/week. A single hour of overtime everyday grosses him another $500/month. And yet he didn’t do it. You can eat or you can sleep, you can’t do both! :stuck_out_tongue:

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Asemaster:
All the best to you in your new career.

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If I don’t need the money, I’m certainly not going to come work for you as a floor-sweep. Nothing against you, but I’m not going to clean anyone’s property unless I need the money.

Yeah, it would, and that’s what we’re advocating. As long as they can afford a place to live, and food/utilities/clothes/other necessities, we’re happy. We do not expect you to pay them well, we merely expect them to be paid well enough.

Only if you’re short-sighted. Your mom and dad likely enjoyed a vastly better quality of life pre-dementia than the person getting the dementia care for free. They had money. He didn’t.

My dad was in the same boat. A career federal attorney (good money, but not private practice lawyer good money), he couldn’t get any assistance for his wheelchair, handicap van, or handicap house when he developed a degenerative muscular condition. He would have had to spend himself down into poverty in order to get government assistance.

While I do agree that the sharp cutoffs in government assistance are foolish, I also submit that there are certain people that should not be getting government assistance. Bill Gates does not need help paying for whatever medical bills he has, nor should he get any. But that doesn’t mean that we should therefore be cruel to a homeless guy who can’t possibly afford to pay for his needs.

No, we don’t. Productivity is higher than it’s ever been. Overall business sector profits are sky high. We can afford for everyone to work 40 hours and earn enough to live on. We simply choose not to.

That’s an indictment of our society, and a direct denial of the assertion that we will all take care of each other.

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Having worked for 5 new car dealers over the years I can say that when it comes to broken promises, BS, fraud, and flat out lies they are all the same.

That also does not apply to me only. That garbage is inflicted across the board and involves more than employees; meaning vendors, banks, and customers are also screwed over.

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I guess I needed the money then. Part of my duties as a bus boy and later short order cook, was to clean the toilets, sweep and mop the floors, and once in a while clean all the hoods. Nowhere near $17 an hour though. I survived and still take pride in sparkling clean toilets and sinks.

My first programming job out of college wasn’t even $17 an hour. But that was close to 50 years ago. $17/hr may be acceptable wage in many parts of the country (central NY, MN, Much of the south)…but not in CA, NYC, Boston, Southern NH…You need 2 wage earners making at least $17/hr just to survive. Make sure you don’t get sick. Pick a job where you won’t get laid off and have to spend weeks or months finding a new job.

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Some folks can’t take care of themselves. My brother in law is an example. Had an injury in his 30’s, doesn’t function on an adult level anymore. So there are some that can’t earn a living. I don’t think anyone has an issue helping them. Then there are others that won’t earn a living. I hired a guy at around $13/hr or so and he could do the work. I had plans on giving him more responsibility and more pay. But…for one reason or another, he wouldn’t show up to work randomly. And he wouldn’t let me know he wasn’t coming. Then he’d show back up. After a few rounds of that, I let him go. He came back wanting to work again, I hired him again, and eventually he stopped showing up for one reason or another (he got put in jail, his car broke down, always something) and I had to let him go again. He was in his early 30’s, had a couple of kids, and I liked the guy. I empathize with some of the issues. But at the end of the day, I had to have someone who could show up and work. My point is, that guy is going to wind up in low paying jobs perpetually if something doesn’t change, and it’s his own fault. He’s never going to advance if he can’t (or won’t) stay somewhere. I never made an assertion that I would take care of him.

I do agree that people ought to get paid enough to be able to live off of their income, but I’m not sure what that exact number should be. I always thought $13 was a little low and I’ve convinced upper management to start a little higher. But, I didn’t judge $13 as low compared to cost of living. I compared it to other entry level jobs in the area with similar responsibilities and difficulty/exertion. I feel like the job in question is more difficult than a Wal Mart greeter, so it ought to pay more. It’s less difficult than production order filling at a Wal Mart distribution center (I know because I did it lol), so it should pay less.

As for fast food workers, I don’t know what they make. But, I agree it should be enough to live off of. Seems like McDonalds is trying to automate and hire less workers. I rarely go in there because the food is pretty awful, but the last time I did, I ordered from a kiosk. It all seemed kind of futuristic in a Mad Max apacolyptic sort of way. I was half expecting my McMuffin to shoot out of a tube after I ordered.

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