Overheating Issue with 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan

I tried to. I bought two bottle of Prestone flush from Advance Auto and drained the radiator, added the two, then refilled. I have about 1 hour run time since.

Odd thing…Both bottle of Prestone flush had the little silver seal pierced and all but removed when I got home to use them. I was thinking about taking them back but thought that maybe someone just wanted to see what the fluid looked like so to save a trip all the way back I used them both. I think that may have been a bad idea. They were both full of what looked and smelled like green anti-Freeze but I have no idea what the Prestone flush looks like.

Doesn’t seem to be doing anything.
I called Prestone and left a message with “Danielle” in tech support to call me4 back so I can ask. If I got scammed I’ll just have to buy two more bottles. (at $14 per bottle)

Last time I will leave a auto parts store with fluids without checking the bottle seal first.

Yes sir!
That car was so much fun. 90hp was very good back in the day for such a light vehicle.
I think mine had 180hp with the turbo and intercooler because the wastegate IIRC was set at double atmospheric.

Then VW came out with the 190HP V6 Corrado in 1991 and cars started getting more powerful.

So trying to make sense of this I did a Map of the entire cooling system minus the expansion tank.
This vehicle has a rear heating system so there are some extra hoses and connections but otherwise pretty normal…except for one thing…

In the drawing below, there is a question mark over a 1/2 to 3/4 hose going from the bottom of the thermostat housing to the casting on the block above the water pump so I think there is coolant flow in this hose but I’m not sure why or in what direction. If you do please tell me.
I couldn’t find it in the factory service Manual?

Just guessing…
If the flow is from the water pump to the T-stat housing couldn’t that by pass or at least reduce the coolant going to the engine? OTOH, if the flow is from the T-stat housing to the Water pump, it seems that would feed hot engine coolant back to the water pump? Maybe there’s a check valve in that line and it has failed?

That should be your Thermostat (coolant) bypass hose… should not be any restrictions in the bypass hose, it allows the coolant to circulate through out the engine until hot enough for the thermostat to open… And it is never a good idea to remove the thermostat as it is needed to control the flow of the coolant, remove it and the coolant is flowing to fast to properly remove the heat off the cylinder walls… Kind of like running your hot water, you can move your fingure through the water really fast and not feel the heat, run it really slow or just hold it there and you will feel the heat, the coolant has to be moving slow enough to transfer the heat from the cylinders but fast enough not to overheat… meaning, no T-stat and the coolant will be moving too fast to pull the heat off the engine cylinder walls and the temp will make it look like you are running cooler then you really are… the T-stat acts like an orifice, or is an orifice…

All engines that run a thermostat need to have some type of bypass provision to avoid localized hot spots, minimize the chance of steam pockets developing, promote even and rapid warm-up, and prevent water-pump cavitation .

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My truck has a bypass hose for that function. The problem w/that configuration, when the engine is hot & thermostat open you’d like all of the coolant to go to the radiator. But w/that bypass hose, there’s still some hot coolant recirculated back to the engine, which prevents full-cooling. My Corolla however uses a bypass thermostat, so doesn’t need a bypass hose. A bypass thermostat has two valves, one opens to allow coolant to flow into the radiator at the same time the other closes to block off the bypass pathway. I think that’s how it works anyway. Corolla’s cooling system seems to work a little better than truck’s.

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Many thermostat housings are set up so that the thermostat, when open, shuts off the bypass opening. That’s why it’s important to get the exact thermostat for your particular engine. OP, are you sure you have the right thermostat?

Note the part on the bottom, that shuts off the bypass when the thermostat opens:

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The bypass t-stat acts as the bypass (hose), just a way to make everything fit in a small engine compartment… I think it is more common (or only) on inline engines then V engines… don’t remember right now… lol

Thanks Dave.
In the diagram, which direction does coolant flow through that hose and how does that bypass the thermostat and circulate coolant? Does it bypass all the time or is there some kind of check valve or other means to close it at any point?

I only removed the T-Stat to ensure that it wasn’t blocking the flow of coolant.

Really appreciate the help.

That was my concern too, George.

Ah…excellent Tex !
This actually has me excited to learn!

Here is a picture of the thermostat Advance Auto parts sold me for my car last week.
It’s also the same as the same store sold me last time.
Man oh man if you just solved this mystery for me I owe you cases of your favorite !!

Now if that IS the case, this incorrect thermostat would allow what…according to my mapping of the cooling system. It would definitely reduce the flow of hot coolant through the radiator…no ?
Which would make the engine run hotter…which is precisely the problem I’ve been having!

Looks to me it would cause reduced flow of cool (post radiator) coolant to reach the engine block? A lot of the return (cooled) coolant would just go to the thermostat housing then back to the radiator?

The car just keeps gradually getting hotter and hotter even in motion. The radiator shows “some” heat passing through it in the therrnal image, but not enough.
This friggin makes perfect sense!

Sadly, when I Google images for the T-Stat for this vehicle they do show the one I got.
It seems to have a plunger in the bottom that I guess is supposed to extend as the coolant gets hotter until it blocks the bypass hole ?

Ok, I put the T-stat in a pot of boinking water and around boiling the plunger came out about 1/2 inch.

You have the correct thermostat, there is no bypass hole below the thermostat. The Hemi uses a dual poppet thermostat, you don’t have a Hemi Grand Caravan.

Which direction does your water pump rotate?

Will check tomorrow.

Thermostat after heating to 212F

5 and 6 look to be problem areas. Are they on the same head? Adjacent?

No. Separate heads.
If they were on the same head and adjacent I would suspect them.

Also, those readings were taken cold.
I will do the test on those two low cylinders when it’s fully warmed up.
I suspect the readings will be much better.

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It seems like that might be the case but actually, it is not true. There’s a lot of thermodynamic properties involved but in reality, the faster moving coolant removes the same number of BTUs- up to a point. The greater the differential in temperature, the greater the potential for heat transfer. Heat transfer slows as the two elements approach the same temperature. So more dwell time is usually not more efficient. Bear in mind, molecules with less heat are constantly replacing those that have left the scene to dump their energy and return again. A properly designed thermal regulation system (see, not a coolant) can dump heat faster than it can be generated. The radiator is more efficient at losing heat than the engine is at generating it. That’s why the thermostat opens and closes during normal operation. It is regulating the engine temperature.

The analogy doesn’t hold because your finger is leaving the hot water and cooling during that period. Leave your finger in the hot water and see if swishing it faster feels cooler than leaving it still :slight_smile:

All this typing- it’s a complicated topic. I went looking and lo and behold, found someone already explained it better than I could :grinning:

Myths
For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.

The myth is stated as either:

  1. Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
  2. Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
  3. Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.

NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance.

The reason the myth is so persistent, is that: a) without knowledge of fluid dynamics and laws of thermal conduction it does make a kind of intuitive sense and b) it is based on a tiny kernel of truth, but that kernel of truth does not explain the overall system behaviour and so, interpreted out of context, leads to a completely erroneous conclusion.

So, let’s start with the tiny nugget of truth. If you had a sealed rad (no flow) full of hot coolant, and subjected that rad to airflow, yes, the longer you left the coolant in the rad, the more it would cool. However, if you were to plot that cooling over time, you would find that the RATE at which the cooling takes place is an exponential curve that decreases with the temperature difference between the hot coolant and the air. Put another way - when the temperature difference (delta-T) between the hot coolant and the airflow is large, heat transfer (cooling) initially takes place very, very quickly (almost instantaneously). But as that happens, and the coolant cools, the delta-T becomes less, and the RATE at which further cooling happens gets less and less until the point where the coolant and air are almost the same temperature and continued cooling takes a very long time. This is Newton’s law of cooling. To illustrate this, recall my “quenching steel in a bucket” analogy.

A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the rate of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long time.

So what does this mean? Basically it means, the longer the coolant stays in the rad, the less efficient the cooling that takes place is - to the point that the rate of cooling is so slow as to be detrimental to overall system cooling . Better to dump the big load of heat right away and go back quickly for another load than hang about waiting for a last little bit of insignificant cooling to happen.

The problem with removing the thermostat is that it allows the engine to run TOO cool, resulting in excess emissions, poor fuel economy, and a freezing passenger compartment in winter.

Your hot thermostat photo, looks like it is working ok. As posted above, it is not possible to use a bypass-style thermostat in an engine not designed for one. Scratch that idea off the list of suspects.

That makes a lot of sense but why then would I even want to install a t-stat in my carbureted hot rod where HP is the main goal, cause a cooler temp engine means more power (to a point)??
You can buy

Engine Masters testing HP on the same engine (598ci BBC) at 135F and 200F, I think it is about a 2% loss of power running 200 vs 135 degrees… Not taking the transmission fluid temp into factor, I know it needs to be around 180 degrees…

If t-stat is completely removed, that might conceivably cause engine overheating. All of the coolant goes into the radiator, so not enough left to go to the engine?