''One of these days, Alice - Pow! Right in the kisser!"

General Discussion
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41

Nah, the 200 auto was crap from the get-go in anything bigger than a Chevette. The internal parts just were not robust enough for a bigger car with more HP. Really, all Hydramatic products in that era were junk. The first transverse FWD large cars, the C and H bodies were popping 2-3 transmissions before the 1st year was out. Winches were installed on transport trailers because the act of driving the cars up the ramps failed the transmissions!

I worked at GM during the Perot years. GM thought EDS would change the GM culture. Actually, the opposite happened. We GM’ed EDS like they’d never seen before. Turned them into a lousy IT provider.

We all were chuckling when Perot unloaded on the top execs for riding in limos rather than evaluating the junk they were building. Roger Smith finally couldn’t stand Perot’s harping anymore and bought his way off the GM board.

42

When my boss stated that the AAMCO boys had told him that his trans was a Chevette transmission, I thought that he had gotten it wrong. I guess for once, weird old Jerry got something right.

My God–what was GM thinking when they used transmissions designed for very light car with a very low torque engine in full-size cars with much more powerful engines? I guess the answer is that they weren’t thinking–or at least they weren’t thinking in terms of repeat customers.

43

Do you feel that Perot’s comments were invalid, or that he had no point?

Sure, I don’t expect GM execs to be driving around in a Chevette

But GM also builds Cadillac, so maybe they could be seen driving in those.

I for one feel that company exec’s actions do reflect on the company’s image . . . to a point

44

But, even if they were riding in Cadillacs of that era, they were still riding in junk!
Fancy junk, with a lot of velour trim, but
junk nevertheless.
:wink:

45

@db4690 If I had been CEO at GM and I furnished cars for the executives, the car might well have been a Chevette. I would tell the executives that if they didn’t like this ride, they could supply their own wheels. I know I am always thinking against​ the wind, but if I am on charge of building cars for the common man, then my execs can drive common man cars and act like common men.

3 Likes
46

I agree wholeheartedly

Encourage the execs to use the company’s own product

And then ask them “Would you buy this product yourself?”

And if the answer is no, ask them what would need to be addressed for that to change

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during such a hypothetical conversation :stuck_out_tongue:

47

@db4690 I often think of the president at the small college I attended in the late 1950s through the early 1960s. The board of trustees decided to buy a car for the use of the president and include the car as part of his compensation package. I was at the dinner table when someone brought up the purchase of the car. A couple of students were upset about it. I said I thought it was a standard practice for colleges and universities to provide a car for the president. Another student at the table spoke up whose father happened to be on the board of trustees for the college. He said that the president was having to use his own car and when he was out of town, the president’s wife didn’t have transportation. They only had one car. I didn’t know what kind of car had been purchased for the president until I was walking into town and the president offered me a ride. The car was the least expensive Chevrolet Biscayne made in 1962. The car didn’t have a passenger​ side sun visor. I made some.comment about the car. The president laughed and said "I picked this car out. I have to raise money for this institution. Wouldn’t you be apt to give.more.money when you see me driving this car than if I arrived in a Cadillac?

3 Likes
48

My son-in-law went to EE school in Austin around 1990. His room-mate was an automotive engineer student.

The auto engineer student’s first job was for a “large US car manufacturer.” Guess. He was assigned to equalizing. So, what is equalizing? They knew about how long the motor and transmission should last. He was part of a team which looked at other parts of the car. Things like the hinges on the glove compartment door, and redesign it so it lasted no longer than the motor or transmission.

He worked there just long enough to get his ticket punched, then left. He said he did not study engineering to design bad cars.

At the same time, Honda and Toyota had teams trying to increase the life of their cars.

Some will say, well, GM has changed and now makes better cars. After decades of bad treatment, I for one will not buy one of their cars, just for past abuse.

They made it clear that the public preferred an American car, thus did not need to produce good cars. History shows this was a mistake.

49

Oh NO! Not at all. Perot was right on the button. If you are a car exec you should drive your product, every day, in every way your customers do, without “garage prep.” Perot even insisted they BUY them from the same awful dealers their customers had to endure. And in the 80’s, the GM dealers in any GM town were arrogant and awful.

Employees at GM above a certain level were given a new car every 3 months to drive. They were supposed to rotate type of cars - minivan, sedan, small car, truck, ect and they were required to buy a new car (or one of their evaluation cars) for their spouse every year. The purpose was to familiarize every exec with the products GM made and the products their own divisions made.

Higher level execs very often had cars “prepped” by the garage to eliminate squeaks and rattles that everyone else had to endure. I’ve seen foam shot into cavities to quiet down cars that couldn’t be silenced any other way.

2 Likes
50

Yes, THAT right there! The execs were surrounded by Michigan. American makes owned the Michigan market because nearly EVERYone had a relative that worked for one of the Big 3 and got a discount on new American cars. Plus they would never think of buying foreign, EVER. So the Big 3 execs thought the whole country believed that. More and more did not. When foreign makes were common everywhere else in the US, Michigan was still populated with American brands. Roger Smith even stated in an interview that buyers preferred a 2 year old Buick to brand new Japanese cars. In Michigan they did, not so much everywhere else.

51

I have no foreign cars (Asian, European, etcetera). Even if I wanted one I’d have to drive 2 hours to buy one. They have no dealers anywhere near me, but plenty of GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Our little country club is a good example of what the locals drive. It’s good because most cars in the parking lot on my league days are local cars. Out of 50 or 60+ cars there are maybe 2 cars that are foreign ( a couple of Mercedes Benz), the rest are all GM, Ford, Chrysler, and mostly SUVs and pick-ups.

I don’t want an Asian car because I don’t want any bottom-line dollars going straight to Japan or Korea where “world headquarters” are located.

The foreign cars are frowned upon around here, I believe for that reason, regardless of somebody trying to argue that they have more U.S. content or are made here by American workers. It seems the consensus is that doesn’t wash.
CSA

52

Well, that may be true in your neck of the woods, but it is absolutely the opposite in the area where I live. One day last week, just for the heck of it, I decided to do an informal tally of the cars parked in the lot adjacent to the hiking trails in my nearby state park. Here is what I counted:

1 Chevy
4 Toyotas
1 Nissan
3 Subarus
2 Hondas
1 Lexus
1 VW
1 Jeep

53

Thank you for clarifying :thumbsup:

I wasn’t sure if you supported Perot’s ideas or not, when you mentioned chuckling at Perot’s suggestion that GM execs actually drive GM cars, as opposed to being chauffeured in Limousines

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the day Roger Smith retired was significant for some other reason, perhaps some new line and/or product was being introduced. He didn’t by chance retire the day Saturn was introduced . . . ?

1 Like
54

I must admit I don’t have any such prejudices for foreign built or owned car brands. My first foreign car was a Datsun 510. Built in Japan and bought used. My latest is a Chevy truck built in Mexico with an engine built in Canada.

Foreign brands built in the US with varying US content pay US workers, US taxes and often even keep the 5-10% profit margins in the US in their US subsidies traded on US stock markets funded with US dollars. The labor content and profit are similar percentages of the sale price. My GM truck was built with Mexican and Canadian labor and sold in the US. Profit to the US but labor content to Mexico. I can’t tell you if a Camry built in Kentucky puts more dollars into the US than my Mexican Chevy.

I know that’s a convoluted example of corporate cash flow in world finances but it is what it is.

3 Likes
55

My memory has faded a bit but I think that’s right. Saturn was Roger’s baby. The baby that GM sucked into becoming part of the GM Borg collective then let die starving for development money


And we chuckled at Perot because we ALL wanted to say many of the things he did
 but we still needed our jobs!

56

Seems to me, any of your neighbors buying Mexican or Canadian built Domestic brand vehicles should be questioned, as to why they are NOT supporting American auto industry workers

I’ll bet some of them would initially not know what the heck you’re talking about. I suspect after the explanation as to where their car was actually built, there would be some backpedaling and hasty excuses and/or reasons, on the parts of some of them.

In that case, anybody using that particular argument who is themselves driving a foreign-built Domestic brand car could/should be considered a hypocrite

57

I’ve read that autos assembled in a NAFTA country can have parts and sub assemblies go back and forth across the border several times. The specific example was Dodge vehicles going from Mexico to the US and back, IIRC. While the final assembly was in Mexico, a lot of the components were assembled in the US. It’s going to happen anyway, and we might as well get as much out of the process as we can.

58

CSA has what I call an attitude against certain brands and that is his right. I fully understand wanting a vehicle with support close to where you live.

I purchased a Nissan Frontier pickup for reasons that may only mean anything to me. The dealership I use employees a lot of people , does a great deal of local charity work and helps the local economy.

59

Many of us have attitudes against certain brands, and not only is that our right, it is to be expected. There are many reasons you may be against a certain brand, besides where the parent company is located

I have a problem with people frowning down upon those people driving foreign-brand cars, while they are themselves smugly driving a domestic brand car which wasn’t built here

If you’re going to use that argument, you should drive a Chevy which was built in the USA, for example. Otherwise, zip it. That’s how I see it

If you use that argument, support the american auto industry AND the american auto workers

I personally don’t subscribe to that train of thought, and don’t use that argument, because I have usually driven foreign brand cars. It’s because I like them, not because I’m against american-brand vehicles. When we went car shopping for my mom last year, we were initially seriously considering some Fords. In fact, we visited 2 Ford dealerships. But they weren’t comfortable, so we passed and wound up buying a Honda in the end. 2 other things sealed the fate against those Fords, by the way. One of the car salesmen came across as a sleazo, in my opinion. And at the other dealer, the Ford wouldn’t even start, due to an empty fuel tank. I’m sorry, but if they can’t even make sure their cars are ready for a potential customer’s test drive, then they may not be getting my business in the end

On the other hand, at the other dealership, the one where we bought the Honda, the cars were ready to go, sufficient fuel in the tank, no sleazo salesmen, no pressure. The car was equipped the way we wanted, it was comfortable. The price was right, so it was a done deal, as far as we were concerned. That Honda was built in Canada, for what it’s worth

Years ago, I was at a Saturn dealer, looking to buy a car. I liked the no-pressure, set price approach. The salesman was a very down to earth guy in his 50s, dressed in slacks and a lightweight summer sweater. Not dressed to impress, like some of those young guys at other dealerships. The price was right,It was a first generation sedan, rather square looking. I really wanted to buy at that place, but unfortunately I didn’t like the actual car.

So for anybody wishing to condemn me, I have considered buying an american brand car several times in the past, even gone to the dealerships, talked to salesmen, test driven the cars, etc. But for various reasons, it just didn’t happen. I may visit american brand dealerships again, when it’s time for the next car. Who’s to say what the end result will be?

60

I heard on National Public Radio a couple of years ago that there are as many jobs in the auto industry as there have ever been. The manufacturers have changed. I live in East central Indiana and we have been devastated by the closing of automotive plants–specifically GM and Borg Warner. However, our son lives in central Tennessee near a Nissan plant that runs three shifts a day turning out pickup trucks and the Leaf.
I think Ross Perot was right that GM executives lost sight of their customers and their workers. The concern became next quarters profits. The GM workers in my part of the nation were loyal to GM and Borg Warner, but the execs did not reciprocate the loyalty.