Oil: Synthetic vs Natural

Maintenance/Repairs
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@meanjoe75fan‌

Not to worry. There is no other way to disagree then state what You think. Everyone has a right to heir own opinion.
There are motors in the Toyota stable that have not been certified to use the thinner oils either, even though they might benefit from them. We are not privy to the slight and relativly minor changes that must be made to do it either. If you think cars are treated differently from one country to another, that would be a good question to ask the company. We know that for sure in towing and we do find both political and actual construction differences.

You cannot discount that thinner oils yield better mileage but you can’t discount either that cars gradually moved to thinner oils over the years using mineral oils too along with longer oil change intervals. And, they performed better too and last langer because they also had tighter tolerances which are necessary for this performance. Using multigrades ilicitted the same negative feedback yet, I have seen no one disagree that much of the wear occurs during start up and all thinner synthetics had disticnt advantages there in both cold weather performance and longevity while still not breaking down at temps.

I just continue to be amazed why some of us keep referring to the owners manual as the proper way to maintain a car for the longest period of time, until, it contradicts what ever long standing opinion we have. Then, these same engineers don’t know what the heck they are talking about. Thin oils and longer change intervals is one those those things that’s tough to accept. But it has been going on since the internal combustion engine has been in existence. Has it been politically motivated ? Sure, but so hasn’t the cat and others which ultimately helped motors perform better and last longer, including their exhaust and other systems.

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I think the discussion about thinner oils should include a discussion about tighter tolerances. Everything has since the days of single weight oils and the 3,000 mile oil change. The engines have changed drastically and the oils have changed drastically. The only things that haven’t changed are some of our habits. :wink:

I recently met a mechanic who told me he changes his oil every 2,000 miles. I refrained from lecturing him about how oils have improved, knowing it would go in one ear and out the other. I have to work with this guy, so I’ve been careful not to give him unsolicited advice. Besides, his commute is a little more than four miles, so in the grand scheme of things, it might not be as much overkill as it first seems.

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With a lot of 4-5 mile drives a 2000 mile change might make sense, especially if it takes 6 months or more.
When my Toyota was under warranty I changed the oil every 6 months, and it was under 2000 miles a couple of times.
I drive mostly on the weekend; ~4000 miles a year, not counting road trips.

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If you think cars are treated differently from one country to another, that would be a good question to ask the company.

First off, no “think” about it: Toyota and Ford both spec different weight oils in different markets, with 0w20 being a “NA thing.” Second, the auto manufacturers can’t just come out and say “Yeah, it’s just a CAFE fiddle”–even if it is. They would likely lose whatever CAFE credits they have earned, or at least look quite double-plus-ungood in the eyes of the EPA.

I just continue to be amazed why some of us keep referring to the owners manual as the proper way to maintain a car for the longest period of time, until, it contradicts what ever long standing opinion we have. Then, these same engineers don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Fine, if you don’t question the owner’s manual, then I just ask that you remain consistent in that view: ATs derive no benefit whatsoever from a fluid change, because they are “lifetime fluids” per the OM. Similarly, no brake fluid or power steering flush means those fluids do not age either, right?

Look: I’m not paranoid enough to believe that new car manufacturers are Machiavellian enough to “set me up for failure” with oil weights and maintenance schedules, BUT I am realistic enough to know they care little one way or another if my 20-y.o., 167K mi truck lives or dies. I know that they build cars for a “design life,” and that, knowing how lifetime ATs fare, I reasonably estimate the design life at ~150K mi. An engineer’s dream is for everything to wear out simultaneously, so if an engine is “over-engineered” (relatively), YES I think they’d spec an oil that would trend towards somewhat shortened engine life, if they had something else to gain.

What I would recommend is finding knowledgeable organizations who have the same goals as you and do what they do. They used my 300 I-6 in UPS trucks, and they desired at least 300k mi durability, which is what I want, too. If I knew what oil, viscosity, and OCI they used, I would do my best to adopt it. (UPS does play pretty “close to the vest,” and I doubt that info is publicly available.)

And YES Ford back-spec’d the flat-tappet inline 6 for 5w20! (Original is 10w30, which is what I run in the summer months.)

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I don’t know how to respond to that. I guess you just have to use your common sense a little. The manufacturers are always trying to differentiate their cars from the competition so you’ve got to sort out a little what is puff and fluff and what really makes sense.

I remember back in 1961, our new Chevy had Acrylic Lacquer paint that was a new innovation. Chevy said it is a “no wax” finish. It never needs waxing. Even as a 13 year old I knew fluff and puff when I heard it and waxed it anyway. How silly even today to think of a no wax finish, let alone 1961. It might still have had some shine at trade in time but it needed wax.

So I guess I’m just saying it is one thing to use 0-20 because that’s what the engineers have speced for the engine but I think it might be another thing to think it can last 10,000 miles. Not using 0-20 could damage the engine, but changing oil at 5K instead of 10K isn’t going to hurt.

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@meanjoe75fan‌
You may want a certain amount of long term motor reliability in 300 CI six but that isn’t what drives auto manufacturing of passenger cars. Being realistic, you and I both know car makers can make cars and motors last the life of the owner. But the fact still remains, these synthetic oils being thinner or not do perform better then mineral oils and show less wear in normal driving then mineral oils. Does that mean the cars last longer ? Heck no. Many cars rust while their motors still purr. The average owner has to be a mechanical dolt not to get good life expectancy from a motor that equals the design intent of the rest of the car with ANY OIL.

We all also know that any life time fluid means designed life time OF THE CAR not YOUR life time ( though at our age it is probably true too). SO that too is consistent with 10k motor oil changes.

I have driven and am aware of too many state and local Govt. small trucks and cars with synthetic oil with 10k intervals to know they absolutely work. As a matter of fact, the failure rate of these vehicles I would bet is less then those with oil change scheduled sooner with mineral oil. This isn’t new either. It’s been going on since shortly after synthetic oil was introduced. It’s been going on right under the noses of all the 3k oil change fanatics like myself for quite a while. who just can’t see the Forrest for the trees. And , these were in cars whose manufacturers were much more conservative in their oil change regime with mineral oils. It’s nothing new. What is new is, manufacturers like Toyota are actually supporting it now. To say that 5k changes doesn’t hurt a car completely misses the point. That’s like saying 2500 mile oil changes doesn’t hurt a car when 5k is specified. The point is, 5k oil changes with synthetic are not necessary for the design life of a car. Heck, change your oil at 1000 miles and the same relative advantage would be realized. NONE.

At some point, maybe when you and I have passed on, car motors will still be running 200 k plus miles with out any oil changes and guys like us will be arguing for the “old” 10 to 20 k oil change. You know, the same UPS “maybe” using today to go 300k miles. Wouldn’t that be a hoot to find out they were using it now ? Actually, UPS has moved from preventative maintenance to just in time based on condition maintenance. So I would suspect the vehicle condition is evaluated to determine oil changes.