As the speaker, subject, or c) all of the above? 
All of the above. But mostly as a subject.
I just got back from the dealer for a recall. I checked on an AC thermostat but they wanted $77 for it. Thought that was a little high so just ordered an AC thermostat for $30, Delco brake pads for $45 and an AC air filter for $16. Maybe theyâre all made in China or Mexico but makes me feel better.
MikeInNH I donât recall having a problem with Fram filters or posting it here.
MikeInNH I don't recall having a problem with Fram filters or posting it here.
I NEVER said you did. @Whitey said you did.
MikeInNH Sorry if you misunderstood. I was on your side!
Mike in NH is absolutely right, my experience and that of four others has no statistical significance and does not prove that Fram makes bad filters.
I was just offering my experience so that someone who has noise on startup for a few seconds might try a different filter and I mentioned the one that worked for me.
I donât have any problem with him and I donât think he has any with me.
I don't have any problem with him and I don't think he has any with me.
No problem at allâŠand I respect your opinion. I even said earlier that if it happened to me and I switched to another filterâŠthen Iâd probably go back. People change what they buy or do based on personal experience. Iâve stopped going to several VERY LARGE AND POPULAR restaurants because of a few bad experiences. Doesnât mean the restaurants are badâŠthey were just bad for ME.
I agree with all of you that anecdotal evidence isnât statistically significant. If that was all Mike was saying, there would be no argument. I just disagree with statements like:
âOne vehicle means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.â
âOne personâs experience means NOTHING.â
Statements like these are imprecise enough that I thought it was my place to say, âDonât tell me my vehicle and my experiences mean nothing. They are meaningful to me.â
, "Don't tell me my vehicle and my experiences mean nothing. They are meaningful to me."
Thatâs the pointâŠthey are MEANINGFUL TO YOU AND ONLY YOU.
And I CAN DISMISS IT. Because it wasnât MY EXPERIENCE. Itâs yours. And my statement that is means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is correct. It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to everyone else. It only has meaning for the person it happened to. It becomes MEANINGFUL to everyone else when MANY people are having the same problem.
What happened to oldtimer 11, circuitsmith, and cwatkin is meaningful to me.
There is NO reason TO yell, YOU know.
⊠and who made you the judge of what is meaningful to other people? Isnât that why we all share our personal stories?
You know, Iâve seen you share a story or two of some personal anecdote to make a point, and I didnât jump all over your case.
âIt means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to everyone else.â
I hereby nominate you, âGod of Meaningfulnessâ since you seem to know what is meaningful to âeveryone else.â
I think MikeInNH has a valid point. From a statistical standpoint, any one personâs experience with oil filters is not statistically relevant. While Whitey is correct that his experience is meaningful to him I would posit that it would take a much larger group of experiences similar to Whiteyâs within an even larger universe of people with experience changing their own oil and filter to determine any statistical significance regarding claims of Fram filters being inferior.
My anecdotal and statistically meaningless experience is that I once used Fram filters exclusively and now I use them about 50% of the time (I buy based on sale prices and availability) and, over the course of more than a million engine miles, have never experienced an engine or filter failure or other unexpected engine noise due to oil or filter issues. Conversely, I have never experienced an improvement or a failure related to any of the other filters I have used (Toyota OEM, Honda OEM, Purolater, Purolater Plus, Mobil 1, Filtech, Bosch, Bosch Distance Plus, Mann, Napa Silver, and Napa Gold). My empirical observation, unsupported by oil analysis, is that spending a ton of money on an oil filter is a big waste. Any filter that meets that OEM requirements of your car should be just fine. The previous sentence is an opinion and contains no warranty, explicit or implied. (I need to stop working with lawyersâŠ)
Iâve been following this but have tried to limit my involvement, but there is another factor in quality control in addition to the ones I have already posted.
In statistical process control (SPC), one bad experience can be extremely relevant. SPC is where a sample size, that is a number of items from a lot, a lot being a shipment, truck load or pallet and those items are inspected. If all of the selected items are found to be defect free, then the whole lot is accepted.
For example, you run a car factory and you get a truck load of oil filters from a manufacturer, you get out the SPC table that corresponds to the lot size and your acceptance criteria and select a sample size from random locations on the truck and you inspect them. The table may allow some defects, for example it may allow one defect from the sample size and the whole truck is still accepted. If the number of defects found exceed the inspection criteria, the whole truck load is rejected.
So if you consider this group as a sample size from the whole population of people buying Fram filters, or consider all the Fram filters bought by this group as a sample size of all the Fram filters sold during the time frame that members of this group have been using Fram filters, then one or a few bad experiences could be significant.
I said COULD BE SIGNIFICANT and not that it is significant. It depends on the inspection level selected from the SPC tables, the total number of filters that Fram has sold and the total number of filters bought by this group. It also depends on whether the bad experiences were due to actual defects, meaning that the filter did not meet specifications as established by the manufacturers or were simply not as good compared to another filter in the mind of the person making the complaint.
For the Chrysler engine that had a ticking when using a Fram filter and did not tick when using a Motocraft, does not mean that the Fram was defective. The manufacturer may have not made their specifications tight enough for the engine. That is not Framâs fault so it does not count as a defect. The only thing that counts as a defect is failure to meet specifications.
There are better made filters out there, I fully agree with that, but that does not mean that Fram or any other low cost filter is not adequate. The better filters may be a waste of money, but if someone wants to waste their money, itâs not my business. If a different filter lets them sleep better at night, then the money is not wasted because a prescription of Ambium costs more than the difference in the price of the filter.
Lets not get all hung up on statistics. That really has little to do with a consumer decision. Back in 1972 I bought a bottle of Pepsi at work. Half way through I discovered a cricket in the bottle. I havenât bought Pepsi for what, 42 years? One instance. I bought a Fram air filter for my 81 Diesel Olds one time and the engine was noticeably louder. I went back to GM when I could. I still use Fram air filters, but I have the idea in my head that they are not as good as the AC filters. Justified or not, based on one instance. Statistics are important in manufacturing and quality control but the consumer doesnât care. One failure and that brand is history-fair or not. So you can have the best product out there but will fail if the consumer perception is low quality. Peanut butter, parts, clothes, shoes, you name it.
So @WhiteyâŠwhen someone tells you they had a bad experience with a Fram filter you then stop using FramâŠthen the next person comes along and says Fram is a good filterâŠyou start using them againâŠthen someone you read on line ONE bad review about FramâŠand you stop buying them againâŠDonât you get sea-sick doing that. If EVERYONEâS ONE opinion is enough for you to change your mind.
Or do you do what most people doâŠTake a variety of responses and make a judgement call?
âAnd my statement that is means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is correct. It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to everyone else.â
These two sentences contradict each other, a venn diagram would be helpful here.
In my earlier post I said there are different grades of Fram filters, and that I wouldnât condemn the higher level Frams because of my bad experience 30 years ago with the cheapest OCOD (orange can of death).
A biologist, a chemist, and a statistician are on a hunting trip. They spot a bear and the biologist shoots first. He misses five feet to the left. Then the chemist shoots and misses the bear five feet to the right. The statistician yells âwe got him!â
Thatâs my last word on this topic. I hope it made you laugh. Now letâs talk about something else.
You donât have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than me.
A north woods guide asked his customer what kind of weapon he had as they were going into bear country. He replied with pride that he had a 357 Magnum. The guide said to be sure to file the sight off it then. Confused the customer asked why? So it doesnât hurt so much when the bear grabs it and puts it . . . As told by a sporting goods dealer and outfitter. Donât know if its true or not, but bear are big.