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Much Ado About Nothing? or Should We Be Concerned?

Apparently AAA thinks we should be concerned about using E15 fuel in our vehicles (unless our vehicles are in a select group of newer vehicles - 2013 Fords for instance).
Here’s the article : http://www.freep.com/article/20121130/BUSINESS01/121130007/gasoline-ethanol-car-truck-damage-AAA?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

Also, is it required by federal law to label pumps containing E15 (for instance, I live in a state (Michigan) where it’s not required by state law to label E10 fuels).
Here’s that website: http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

How are we to know what amount of ethanol is in our fuel or doesn’t it matter because our government (always) has our best interests in mind?

Unless you have a flex fuel car, or KNOW it’s approved for E15, don’t use E15.

So yes, be concerned.

It matters.
And if you find a government official, be he/she an administrator, a legislator, or a beaurecrat, that has OUR bests interests in mind I’d love to meet him/her.

I agree with AAA that introdiucing 15% is premature at best. There are still millions upon millions of older vehicles that might be damaged by 15% and they’re going to be on the road for many years to come.

The statement that “If there’s an issue with E15 (damaging vehicles) we’re going to know about it, and the EPA is going to know about it.” is a copout. Who cares if they know about it…they won’t pay for the damage to already economically beaten-down car owners.

The truth is that ethanol as a reducer of dino fuels is a farce. It has been proven that between the dino fuels used to grow and harvest ethanol and the reduction in energy in the ethanol adversely affecting gas mileage, ethanol saves nothing. Think of it as a farm subsidy for the ethanol producers, who, by the way, have a 54 member ethanol lobby.

This whole subject is bloated with politics and payoffs.

I would be worried. Marathon “accidently” released gasoline that was somewhere around 12-15 percent ethanol in my area of the country last spring. A lot of vehicles were affected and small engines like lawn mowers, weedeaters and chain saws were destroyed. This was a short term problem so long term would create even more damage.

And if you find a government official, be he/she an administrator, a legislator, or a beaurecrat, that has OUR bests interests in mind I'd love to meet him/her.

Al Franken, Amy Klobuchar, Bernie Sanders, Barney Frank and a few others do have regular office hours and might be willing to accommodate that request. :wink:

Time to put the liquor back in the bottle-Kevin

It’s a perfect opportunity for a class action suit that will net the affected car owners pennies on the dollar and lawyers millions. Look for an envelope with your name on it in a couple of years.

I’d feel better if DoT weighed in on it. I’m not sure that the EPA has the technical talent to provide an informed opinion.

I thought I’d read awhile back that the E15 will be in separate pumps, like E85, and would be labeled as such

“I thought I’d read awhile back that the E15 will be in separate pumps…”

It’d be not. It’s too close to E10. Besides, they’d have to add another pump at each island. Look, what’s more important? Our car’s long lives or the pocketbooks of the guys that own our elected representatives?

Jaded JT made me say that.

@the same mountainbike,
The primary reason to use ethanol is a very smart one for cleaner air and ground water. This is a solid fact. MTBE the last oxygenate used is not removable from the groundwater and is a poison(to all animals) in the water table. The unburned fuel in the air from not adding oxygenate hurts all breathing animals by boosting ground level ozone. The change to oxygenated fuels(the last 35 years) has sharply reduced ozone(15% +). The change to ethanol removed the poison of MTBE from the water table. The evidence that E15 hurts car engines(post 1987) is poor at best. It may be bad for lawn mowers, light engines, and older cars that use a different rubber formulation in their hoses. These are easy to replace.

Corn farmers should be required to use ethanol laced gasoline in their tractors. Yes, I know that almost all tractors have diesel engines now. Most tractors had gasoline engines in the 1950s and there is no technical reason that gasoline tractors could not be produced again so that corn farmers could use ethanol fuel too rather than ask Congress to make on-road motor vehicles use all of their ethanol production for corn farmers’ economic benefit.

Air quality would be enhanced if corn farmers would reduce the use of diesel engines and instead use clean running ethanol-gasoline engine powered tractors equipped with catalytic converters.

@eurale1, MTBE has been outlawed in the most populated areas of the USA for years.

@Wha Who,
I had no trouble with my ford 9n tractor on e10 at all. All the lines were metal. The main reason they so not use gasoline is the big tax break that farmers get on diesel fuel. As non road fuel they get it with no tax and deduct the cost of fuel against the cost of the crop. The farmer also gets a boost from the low end torque that diesels have, that most gas engines do not. Gasoline is more flammable and may not be as friendly when you just have to weld a bit to fix the tractor. The amount of fuel gas or diesel used on farms is such a small amount compared to semis and suvs that the air quality would not even notice the difference.
Why do you beat on the farmers any way? They don’t spend a lot of time clogging the roads at rush hour and idling at stop lights.

I have no problem with MTBE being banned and ethanol as a good option for octane requirements. But we should get rid of the government’s volume mandate, it’s resulted in more than 40% off the corn crop going to ethanol production. Crazy.

The Gov’t is full of controlling bureaucrats who are whining and eager to tell you how to live,that being said a few agencies have helped in the past(the greed thing again)-Kevin

@kmccune, Bureaucrats are nonelected officials. They are not the problem. Elected officials for the corn belt are the instigators, and Congress as a whole is the problem. They pass laws that bureaucrats must enforce.

Dont know JT,I know plenty of zealous bureaucrats(they take thier percieved authority real serious) but like you say they are not the problem only a symptom.I say lets make this country a real democracy and actually let the people have a say in what they have to put up with.The moneyed ones dont always look at things the same way us folks in the trenches do-Kevin

eureyale1 quote: "Why do you beat on the farmers any way? Unquote

Dear eureyale1: There is no reason why farmers could not get the road tax removed from gasoline for tractor use as has been done for diesel fuel and that is all well and good.

You can ask for that during your next trip to see your congressman when you beg for continued crop insurance subsidies and farm commodity price supports. Congress should give as much to other wealth producers such as people who make things but we can’t afford any more giveaways.

If we can send a man to the moon, perhaps a usable dieselhol (diesel fuel plus 15% ethanol) could be made possible.

@jtsanders and @bscar2 -

About E15 being in separate tanks/pumps…

Last I heard, they will require separate pumps if you want to sell both E10 and E15, OR you will be forced to implement a 4 gallon minimum purchase:

Eurydale, I agree with you that MTBE is poison. I do not agree that ethanol is necessary OR environmentally sane. And the impact ethanol production has had on corn prices (a staple foodstuff in the southwest) is undeniable. Whether ethanol acutaually reduces the use of dino fuel is, at best, still in dispute, but it clearlly damages older vehicles.

As to paying for the conversion of all the tractors, combines, harvesters, and processing equipment… who, exactly, is going to pay for that? And what portion of the product will then be needed to operate the converted equipment? And what will the resulting increase in demand do to edible corn prices?

Remember too that ethanol doe not contain as much energy as gasoline. It would take much more ethanol to drive the fam equipment than it does gasoline…and at an elevated price.

Ethanol was the “hope” of the industry, but it turned out not to be the panecia that everyone thought. It’s time to move on rather than continue forcing it on an unwilling public. If only lobbyists were banned from the beltway…