@H.D.
In regards to that oil leak, I think it’s that u-shaped seal which we were discussing earlier, on the front cover
I wouldn’t at all be surprised if you’re on the second head gasket by now
Even if you’re still on the original gasket, nothing in your pictures shows a need to replace it just yet
If memory serves me correctly, the M104 engine was even more notorious for leaking head gaskets
Thanks db4690 !
With your opinion about my head gasket I feel a lot safer to leave it untouched.
@ wesw
Is it any wonder that the world doesn’t feel like it did until – let’s say 20, 30 years ago. There were more people like your grandmother around.
I believe her presence was a gift to quite a few people, besides you, also at Woolworths.
No doubt – I can see, she must have been a very kind, indulgent and peaceful person with a talent to pacify and encourage people.
Appreciating to have been close to her, you show wisdom wesw!
you are correct about everything except my wisdom.
thank you so much for your kind comments
@ insightful
“…Hondas use screw-adjusted rockers; not a hydraulic lifter in sight, and his were in spec …”
I almost forgot to mention that I didn’t know that.
Besides a Honda S600 which a guy in my neighborhood had in the later 60s, the only Hondas I was in touch with were their motorcycles.
So, the fact that there are no lifters in your nephew’s car, makes that “clack“ a little worrying.
On the other hand, if that sound hasn’t become worse over mainy thousands of miles and the car will further be treated gently when cold and the engine oil quality will be kept in view, maybe it’s something which can be lived with (even if it is piston slap).
The “clack” from my cold engine under load is different each time. One morning it is there, next time nothing, another time a little. That and the very good and homogenous compression is why I don’t suspect piston slap but a failing lifter of an outlet valve.
The “tap” which I hear seems to come from the intake valve lifter of the first cylinder – at least according to my attempt to pin it down using a big screwdriver as a stethoscope.
Today I actually wanted to order new hydraulic lifters and valve stem seals from the local Mercedes dealer.
But I thought I better quickly open the valve cover and check the old lifters before I spend about 300 $ on 12 new ones.
I tried to compress them with a piece of wood (rocker arms on the base radius): none of them collapsed!
Then I checked the base position of the camshaft in relation to the crankshaft.
When the crankshaft is in ignition TDC of the first cylinder a hole in the camshaft flange must align with a cast cam on the first camshaft bearing cap (see 3rd picture). Looks perfect!
So, judging from that, it doesn’t look like the timing chain is stretched!
I also checked if there is any lash between the timing chain and the camshaft sprocket: nothing!
So the chain elements are not (or hardly) worn either!
For a few weeks - as a possible reason for my shaky idle - I have suspected at least one of the intake valves not to open completely due to failing lifter(s).
Now I wondered, what the h*** can the “tapping” sound in the valve train be caused by, if not by failing lifters.
So I wanted to know what the cams of the camshaft look like, and I disassembled the oil pipe which suplies the cams with oil (it blocks a clear view onto the camshaft).
Take a look at the picture of the first intake cam !!!
I guess I don’t need many words to describe what I discovered:
The cam of the first cylinder is worn off by 1.6 mm (0.063 inch). You see the left edge of the cam is still complete (right below my thumb), and the right edge is only partly still existing. (These are the areas beyond the rocker arm’s sliding surface)
The wear of the intake cams:
#1: 1.6 mm
#2: 1.3 mm
#3: 1.5 mm
#4: 1.4 mm
#5: 0.05 mm
#6: 0 mm
The wear of the outlet cams:
#1: 0.15 mm
#2: 0.1 mm
#3: 0 mm
#4: 0.1 mm
#5: 0 mm
#6: 0.05 mm
So – it’s not failing hydraulic lifters, it’s a worn camshaft, which causes valves not to open completely !
I guess (and now I even hope) that’s what causes:
None of the Mercedes people who listen to my car and drove it, suspected that!
So instead of spending 300 $ for hydraulic lifters I may have to spend – I don’t know how much yet – for a new camshaft. I’ll find out tomorrow.
I hope that the rocker arms haven’t suffered by these worn cams !
well, I don t want to count your chickens before they hatch, but with a little luck (and a lot of skill and hard work), you may have the smoothest running '88 Mercedes in the world!
Wow, and here I thought General Motors was the only manufacturer that had cam wear problems.
Another thought: Be sure to check the valve guides before installing the new seals. They may also need to be replaced.
Last night I was wondering:
How can an engine with damaged cams like mine run so smoothly above idle?
How can the 5 different Mercedes mechanics at 3 different Mercedes dealers who still have experience with the W124 models and who have listened to my running engine with their heads under my hood not suspect the camshaft?
Half of them – after I specifically asked them about their opinion regarding the hydraulic lifters - said: “There is a little sound that seems to come from the lifters, but nothing to worry about yet. The oil may have become a little thin with all your short distance use. Just do an oil change and it’ll probably be okay.”
Didn’t any other parts of the valve train get damaged due to that cam wear?
The lifters seem to be ok, but how about valves, valve guides (which insightful mentions), valve spring retainers, valve collets, valve springs?
Let’s see what db4690 thinks about these concerns when he is back!
Last night I checked the camshaft No. which is engraved in the flange, it’s “42”.
That’s the “soft” camshaft, which Mercedes used until 02/89! (see chapter “05-2150” of that link which db4690 posted on May 10). So that was a problem in the 80s which induced Mercedes to change the camshaft material.
My car missed the “hard” camshaft by 3 months!
In the above mentioned chapter it also says, that with the updated camshaft also updated rocker arms are required. $$$?
Today – since the cylinder head is still open - I want to do some further checks of the valve train.
And then I want to make some phone calls.
Okay, I checked (as far as possible with the completely assembled valve train): camshaft bearing clearance, valve guide clearance and rocker arm bearing clearance. All of that seems to be ok.
The local Mercedes dealer confirmed today, that the updated camshaft requires new matching rocker arms. And it also requires a new matching hub for the distributor arm and a new matching sprocket for the timing chain and some new bolts.
When I asked for the price, he felt a little uncomfortable, because he worried he would ruin my day with the answer. After some calculation he came up with close to Euro 1.700 (US$ 2.300). Trying to make it sound more acceptable, he said: “But! - Including sales tax.”
So – wesw – I’m afraid that your list of what it takes to fix this camshaft problem was not quite complete.
You mentioned: a little luck, a lot of skill and hard work.
You forgot: a big investment!
yeah, I tend to forget about money. I seldom see it, so it slips my mind.
can you get the old soft camshaft cheaper, and would it save replacing the other parts?
maybe a salvage yard has one in good shape from an old wreck of a low mileage car
perhaps you could even harden it yourself
@ wesw
The old camshaft is not available anymore.
It would certainly save replacing the hub for the distributor arm and the sprocket for the timing chain.
It would also save replacing the rocker arms, IF they were still ok, which I doubt very much.
The tip of the worn cams is practically cut off like you cut of the tip of a boild egg. So the rocker arms have been sliding over two quite sharp corners for a long time, which probably ground a groove into it’s sliding surface. I tried to check that today using a small piece of plastic which I moved over the surface as far as it is accessible on the installed rocker arms. What I felt seems to confirm my assumption.
Mentioning “salvage yard” reminds me to a company about 30 miles from my home, which deals with used parts for older Mercedes models. There main business is collecting parts in Germany and exporting them to Africa. I should give them a call tomorrow.
Good idea wesw! (contrary to your idea to harden the camshaft myself)
lol, that s the hillbilly and ironworker in me coming out. I have on occasion when I needed a center punch in the field, made my own. a grinder a little steel a little heat a little oil and…voila! a center punch.
lol, I can imagine.
@H.D.
Even if there was no supersession of parts, I wouldn’t want to reuse rockers, if a cam went flat
If I were you, I’d look for a used 103 cylinder head, obviously from a later model. The only problem I see is that you’d most likely want to send it out for a complete valve job . . . cut valves and seats, replace valve stem seals, replace guides, seats and valves as needed
“Fortuntately” . . . this is not a Mercedes-Benz specific problem. It occasionally happens with a lot of different brands. But it’s not common anymore.
Even if you only want the newer cam and rockers, I would make 100% sure the bearings are in good shape. If they aren’t, your head may be trash
This little paragraph sums up what you need, I believe. And it seems to match up with what you were told . . .
By the way, I have mixed feelings about Febi brand parts
I really feel bad for you
If this were my car, I would head out to the junkyard this weekend, because it’s 1/2 price weekend, and I can almost guarantee you I’d find myself a fair condition 103 engine head. Because there’s lots of older 300E, 300CE, 300SE, etc. cars there, just waiting to be plundered.
But I’m almost 100% certain you have no possibility of doing that yourself. I was still living in Germany, when the pick your own part style auto junkyards were made illegal. And that was was some time ago.
I certainly hope that guy was quoting you a price for genuine Mercedes-Benz parts . . .
@ db4690
Thank you for your compassion and your thorough answer!
Here is some information I collected today:
I asked the No.1 car parts dealer here in Aachen (very good reputation, they also provide Mercedes dealers): He gave me a quotation for a complete set: camshaft, rocker arms, hydraulic lifters (not included in the Mercedes quotation), sprocket and the hub for the distributor arm.
Producer: Febi-Bilstein (the one you have mixed feelings about)
Price: Euro 1.100 ($ 1.500)
Today I asked the Mercedes guy whether the parts he offered are genuine Mercedes.
He said that Mercedes doesn’t produce these parts for the older engines anymore, they are bought-in parts. He said he couldn’t tell me who the producer is.
I also talked to an ex-Mercedes master mechanic, who owns his own auto repair shop now, which is specialised on Mercedes. He said that Febi is one of the original equipment manufacturers, and thinks they’re not bad. And he said that Febi may as well be the manufacturer of the parts which the Mercedes guy offers.
But he recommended a company in Bavaria, which is specialised on Mercedes engine and transmission overhaul. He said they have a very good reputation and many Mercedes repair shops cooperate with them.
Then I had an extensive phone call with their master mechanic, who is obviously a big fan of the M103 engine. He said, besides those early camshafts until the late 80s, the M103 is one of the most robust engines Mercedes has ever built.
He said, usually these camshafts look like mine when they have a lot more miles on them. But 120.000 miles in 26 years tell him that my car probably very often stands still for several days. During that standstill almost all the oil dripps off the camshaft. Also most of the oil within the oil ducts leaks out over several days, so that it takes a little time until the camshaft is sufficiantly lubricated when the engine is started again. Very bad especially for this “soft” camshaft from the 80s.
He said he can offer me a complete cylinder head overhaul, but he thinks it will not be necessary. According to his experience also with cams worn as much as mine the camshaft bearings should be ok.
And he said the shaky idle could very well be caused by the worn cams and rocker arms.
He gave me a quotation (according to his recommendation) for:
camshaft, rocker arms, hydraulic lifters, timing chain (not included in any of the a.m. quotations), sprocket and the hub for the distributor arm.
Producer: He didn’t reveal that, but he said they cooperate with a very good German producer and I should not worry about the quality. After all he wants me to recommend them to other people based on my good experience with them.
Price: Euro 950 ($ 1.300)
I talked to the company which deals with used Mercedes parts I mentioned yesterday. They offer used cylinder heads completely assembled with valves, camshaft, rocker arms, …
Price: Euro 400 ($ 550)
They said I should drop in and have a look. I’ll probably pass by their location next Wednesday anyway.
@H.D.
I like option 3 and 4
But I like option 3 better, because it’s new parts and includes many more parts
Option 4 is okay, but it’s more for the penny pinchers. And it’s taking a gamble. How can you ensure you wouldn’t be buying a head with 300K miles, or an early casting with the soft cam?
I suppose the advantage of option 4 would be that you could install a complete used head, and it would be less work for you. But you would have to be brave. You know you have good compression. How do you know the used head doesn’t have rotten guides and seals, burnt valves, etc.? You could recognize a burnt valve, but not a bad seal or guide, if the head was assembled
@ db4690
You confirm my preference for option 3 and my concerns about option 4 !
The Bavarian man sounded very knowledgable, and I could feel that he was really focused on a sufficient solution for my problem and not one which brings him the biggest profit.
By the way, now I know why this hub for the distributor arm has to be renewed too. It’s because Mercedes not only changed the material of the camshaft, but also the opening time of the intake valves to later by 5°.
Regarding option 4:
There would be a way to see whether a used head is equiped with the hard or the soft cam:
The rocker arms for the hard cam have a brazed on sliding plate, which the rocker arms for the soft cam don’t have. But even if it has the hard cam, I would still have many doubts.
But what a difference in the quotations between the Mercedes dealer and this Bavarian company:
Mercedes charges $ 2.300 for:
The Bavarian charges $ 1.300 for:
Of course I tend to ask myself: “Where’s the beef?”
But the man sounded very reliable and he took a lot of his time asking me questions about many technical details which he wanted to know, before he definitely confirmed his suspicion that the worn cams and rocker arms cause my shaky idle.