I knew there was a “J” involved in the name somewhere … lol … thanks for the clarification dB.
Here’s some insight into those misfires without a DTC, flashing MIL or P0300
As far as Fords go, there is a cylinder contribution test, which is available on many aftermarket scanners. I won’t go into too much detail, but you are able to “see” all of the cylinders, and I’m fairly certain you would have caught the problematic cylinder. Meaning, you now know which cylinder is causing the problem. And you’ll have to figure out why . . . plug, low compression, coil, wires, injector, etc. It’s a start, anyway
There were similar problems at the Benz dealer. There were certain engines which were clearly missing, yet no P0300. These had 2 plugs per cylinder. By using the scan tool to shut down one of the ignition circuits, the remaining one would work that much harder. Invariably, one of them would fall flat on its face, and you would catch it on the screen. Sometimes it would fail so miserably that the MIL would start flashing. But, if you weren’t fully familiar with the scan tool’s capabillities, you would spend that much more time chasing the misfire. BTW . . . it was usually a bad plug wire. Afterwards, the customer would be amazed how well the engine was idling after replacing just one single plug wire, out of 12
My snap on scanner is okay for domestic and asian, but lousy for european. I am not confident I could effectively use to diagnose a driveability complaint on an Audi, for example. Unless it was something very obvious.
“My question is this. How do you explain the vast number of people who have their vehicles into a shop for poor running with repeated scans, small fortunes invested in replacing this, that, or the other, and still suffering the same problems with or without a CEL and even on near new cars?”
Where do I start?
First, with the customer. “Do you charge for your diagnosis?..I can drop my car off at 9 but I need it back by 11…etc.” I probably lose a lot of check engine light customers because I won’t even plug into your car for less than $50 and I won’t do it while you wait. A proper and complete diagnosis takes time and money. I recently had a guy come in with an intermittent driveability complaint but refused to leave the car for more than 2 hours at a time. I finally told him “When you’re serious about getting your car fixed drop it off for a couple of days and I’ll take care of it.”
Second, with OBD2. For some reason that was supposed to be the greatest thing for the repair industry. All codes were supposed to be standardized across all makes, and data stream was supposed to be consistent. Guess what? I don’t think it did those things. People have the idea that a fault code tells you what’s wrong with the car and that anyone with OnStar or a generic code reader can fix a car. You know that’s BS. All it’s done is give the guy on the street just enough information to be dangerous and annoying without giving him enough to actually know what’s wrong with his car. I’m sure you’ve used many scan tools in your career, compare generic OBD2 data with vehicle specific data and functional tests and tell me that the 2 are even in the same ballpark. I don’t have a generic code reader and don’t see the point in having one. To me they’re useless for actually fixing a car. Remember, OBD2 is just an emissions control device and doesn’t have much to do with diagnosing or repairing a car.
Third, technician training and education. People seem to either have problem solving ability or they don’t. Years ago I went to a seminar and the first thing the instructor said was “If you follow the trouble tree in the service manual, all you’ll do is get in trouble.” He was right. There’s no way a manufacturer can anticipate every way in which a system can fail. I don’t remember the last time I followed a service test procedure step by step. There is never going to be “step 5–check for wiring pinched under bracket as a result of shoddy previous service.” or “#3–inspect for EGR valve installed upside down.” There are myriad fault codes that end up being caused by something completely outside the system the code declares. Experience and critical thinking are the ways out of these, and that’s not too common. The “art” of looking at a wiring diagram to see how a system works and figuring out the fault is being lost to the “science” of just following directions.
Fourth, with manufacturers. Progress isn’t always linear, and you’ve got to try things a few different ways before you find the best way. MAP sensor integral to the EGR valve. Fuel trim controlled by downstream oxygen sensors. Multiple spark per combustion event. Last week I replaced an A/C condenser because it was leaking transmission fluid. Sometimes having different technology results in confusion during the repair.
Fifth, with shop ownership and management. Investment in equipment needs to be sizable and constantly updated. You’ve got to pay to play. I hear all the “Right to Repair” noise and how the dealers are locking out the independent shops and DIYers and it’s all garbage. With very few exceptions for security systems everything you need to fix your car is available to everyone. But management often sees that $3500 scan tool as unneeded when you can get a generic code reader for $100. And then they’re the same ones that complain when they have to send a car to
the dealer. Without the proper diagnostic equipment you’re only as good as you are lucky. Likewise for the technicians. If you’re unwilling to pay $1000 for a decent multi-meter or buy a torque wrench with a gyroscope in it you’re not going to be very successful at fixing cars, whether you own the place or are just a mechanic.
Sixth, the internet. This goes for both the shop and the customer. A lady comes in and says she needs a leak detection pump because the code she got from Autozone and some “research” shows it’s what’s causing her check engine light. The shop goes online to its own resources and forums and comes to the same conclusion. Instead of approaching every problem anew and testing the complete system we’re just relying on other people’s experiences. Some of this is forgivable, but when it becomes standard practice you get into trouble.
Have I missed anything?
Very informative and I agree with all of it. I carry a cheap (not cheap when purchased a long time ago) basic code reader to carry in the car because I know it will take a beating being lugged around in a stowage compartment. Same with the small, inexpensive VOM I tote along.
Once the No. 3 wire is on the bench and a visual along with the VOM shows it to be good, then what is the mechanic to do? An aftermarket set of wires is 100 dollars and I vaguely remember pricing a set of Motorcrafts out years ago at about 200. That’s a bit pricy on what would essentially be a wild guess as to whether the spark plug or coil are also involved.
My point is simply that problems do exist with no codes being set; no matter if it’s engine performance or drivetrain.
On that same Lincoln I’ve had a speed sensor totally fail and would never have known it if the speedometer and cruise had continued to work. Zero MPH is what got my attention.
One of my sons had a major transmission issue on his Lincoln a few years back and repeated scans at the Ford dealer who sold the car and a scan by a very reputable transmission shop in the city where he lives never produced anything except the indy guy stating there was definitely a problem. Finally tearing into it, they discovered a faulty valve body and EPC solenoid. A cut and paste bulletin heading below might illustrate my position also.
LINCOLN LS 5R55S HARSH ENGAGEMENTS AND/OR HARSH SHIFTS
Before or after an overhaul, 2003 and newer Lincoln LS vehicles equipped with the 5R55S transmission may exhibit a complaint of harsh engagements and/or harsh up-shifts (especially the 1-2), with no codes stored in the PCM.
The elderly lady across the street from me is well off and always buys new cars. She owns 2 Chevys and takes them to the dealer while under warranty. I’ve often done repairs (car and home) for her at zero charge and refused to take money even when she insisted that I do.
Once, a few years ago, she mentioned one of them (30k miles) having a “vibration”. Just starting the car up, I noticed only a very, very slight shake and told her it was spark plugs while doing nothing on the diagnostic end of things.
Her paperwork showed that car had been into the Chevy dealer 3 times for a full diagnostic (2 she was charged for and one freebie on a followup) and it was always pronounced “fine, no problem”. She had asked about a “tune up” and the dealer insisted all was well in that area.
I picked up a set of new plugs and and cured the car, for free. Surely, someone in that dealership could have considered the possibility of plugs, 30k miles or not…
Please understand that I’m not knocking diagnostics at all; only saying that many problems exist for which there is no clear cut answer. One can only wonder how many times a day in the lower 48 a car owner is told (for the first time or the tenth time) that their are no faults shown for their bucking or randomly dying engine, balky transmission, or what have you. That comment is not meant as a reflection of mechanic incompetency at all and I certainly side with you about a DTC code only being a starting point in spite of the perception that it’s the final answer to a problem.
Happy Thanksgiving @ok4450 and everyone else here!
I know I sound like a prima donna here, but I’m really not.
“Once the No. 3 wire is on the bench and a visual along with the VOM shows it to be good, then what is the mechanic to do?” Well, that’s my point. You were working on your own car, on your time, at your home. So your testing methods are different than in a production setting. If you were at the shop, the wire wouldn’t be on the bench. It would have been found as faulty during your initial testing, involving a scan tool, graphing/recording multi-meter or ignition scope (either handheld or pc based), and whatever other equipment you and the shop provide. With the proper equipment and experience I figure that wire should have been found inside of 20 minutes. Don’t have the proper equipment and experience? Then get out of the car business. The shops that try to do this without give all of us a black eye.
“My point is simply that problems do exist with no codes being set; no matter if it’s engine performance or drivetrain.” Of course, what is the supposed magic associated with codes? Where did the idea come from that codes will help you fix the trouble? In case anyone else is reading here, let me repeat what I’ve said before…OBD2 is an emissions control device, and a crude one at that. The only faults that are allowed to turn on the check engine light are faults that may cause damage to an emissions control device or faults that may allow tailpipe emissions to rise above 1.5 times the federal protocol. Make a list of faults that can happen outside of these parameters, and it will be longer than those inside. In your 5r55 example, of course there was no MIL, harsh engagement isn’t an emissions issue. As for there being no codes, well, as I said earlier there is no way they can anticipate every way in which a system can fail. That particular failure just isn’t something that is monitored. But we as mechanics should be able to figure it out, code or not. What causes harsh engagement? Mechanical failure or high line pressure. A proper scan tool with transmission capabilities would allow you to monitor and/or actuate solenoids, coupled with high and low line pressure gauges the problem should be found.
Now a Ford transmission works in a completely different way than a Honda. Once again, problem solving coupled with an understanding of how the device works is what makes a good mechanic. But with the “magic” of OBD2 trouble codes, everyone is a mechanic and those of us that really are are just high-priced ripoffs.
“Her paperwork showed that car had been into the Chevy dealer 3 times for a full diagnostic (2 she was charged for and one freebie on a followup) and it was always pronounced “fine, no problem”.” I fault the dealership for that one. If it’s a late model GM I guarantee that a scan tool with live cylinder misfire data and history misfire data will pick up a single misfire before you can see, hear, or feel it. Maybe the scan tool the tech was using wasn’t factory level, maybe they gave it to their general line tech and not the driveability guy. Maybe they only paid .3 flat rate (which I believe is current at GM dealers for warranty MIL) and the tech punted it. Anyway, good on you for fixing it.
If it sounds like I’m bored today I am. My wife is taking our son to Thanksgiving with friends, I’m staying home with a feverish barfing daughter. Sigh.
The thing with my Ford is that I have a scan tool along with a code reader and no misfire was shown on either one. Actually, I feel that the first thing that should happen in a case like my Lincoln is that the CEL should illuminate and flash with an engine that has a dead ignition miss.
Any diagnosis starts after that.
That independent transmission guy I mentioned is someone I’ve known for 40 years and he’s as good as it gets with auto transmissions. He uses a SO Solus I think and stays on top of the lastest bulletins and updates. Several new car dealers around here send him transmission headaches and even warranty issues to iron out. The shop has been around for going on 70 years and was started by his dad originally. He’s done well enough to have been able to put up a new, modern shop building about 25 years ago with more lifts and even his own parts inventory room and a tool room.
Regarding that lady across the street, warranty did not pay and this was a 2003 S-10 with the 4.3. This was a case of low miles/out of warranty due to time and it was customer pay at about 75-80 dollars a pop; which at the time points to roughly an hour of flat rate labor. The dealer has a very good reputation after 50 years and has a large modern shop that could be considered top tier all the way. I’ve never worked there but had a friend who did (prior to this incident) and they also have another GM franchise and Toyota dealership on the same spot.
Hope your daughter gets better and I’ve been there, done that with kids. My Thanksgiving actually went a bit better this year. Three grown kids with mulitple cars usually means that while the turkey is cooking (or other activity related to whichever holiday is cut into) I’m out changing oil or replacing brakes. I got off easy this year without having to raise a hood… 
I didn’t say you would catch it on the misfire monitor
If your scan tool shows cylinder contribution for your particular engine, it might have helped. But it’s not supported for every engine and every model year
I also have Snap on scanner, a solus pro, actually
Anyways, at times, I have had to lie to the scanner . . . tell it I have the wrong model year, engine displacment, etc. to see the information I want
There have been times when a certain scanner couldn’t clear a code after a repair, but another brand did the trick.
Recently, I replaced a fuel filter on a 2008 C5500 with the 6.6 Duramax. The service fuel filter light was on. I looked in the owner’s manual and the factory service manual for instructions on how to reset the light. Well, I found them, but the light wouldn’t reset. I grabbed a Tech 2, and it wasn’t very helpful. Finally, I hooked up my Snap on scanner . . . which doesn’t even do medium duty . . . and was able to reset the light. I told it I had a 2008 3/4 ton Sierra with the Duramax
Every (good) mechanic will have his own diagnostic approach and system to get to the root of the cause. You know the misfire felt like ignition, so that’s where you went first. Your transmission expert probably knew that the harsh engagement wasn’t a software issue but a mechanical/hydraulic problem, which it was–you said EPC solenoid was failing, right? That’s the thing that you can never teach or explain to someone who doesn’t have the talent for this work. But the fallacy of OBD2 codes telling you what’s wrong has led to the public thinking they can fix their own cars and mechanics/technicians who are nothing more than parts tossers. There’s whole new line of work out there called “swaptronics”, just replace module after module until it’s fixed. But I think I’m preaching to the choir here, right?
As for the lack of misfire codes, supporting data, etc, I have no explanation. Granted, a car with coil-on-plug ignition needs to have some sort of accurate misfire info to make the diag process easier, but on a car like your Mark, with accessible wires and shared coil packs, ignition and scope testing should get you there. How would you trace a misfire on a 1994 Mark without OBD2?
Your friend with the successful trans shop must be able to charge quite well, and rightly so if he’s the one who fixes cars others can’t. Leave the free diagnosis to the bottom feeders. I have found that, generally speaking, lowering prices results in lowering the quality of the customer. Your experience at the GM dealer supports my thoughts about guys turning into parts changers. If the scan tool doesn’t show a problem there must not be one, right?
I once had a transmission shop send a car to me to fix the engine performance problem that cropped up just after they installed a reman trans. Car bucked and jerked at idle only in gear. They replaced all kinds of engine stuff. I spent an hour with it and told them it was a trans problem. Still not believing me, I actually had to pin probe at the trans sensors and show them with a labscope and scan tool that the tcc was somehow engaging even with command at 0%. I told them they should look for a hydraulic leak in that circuit, like a bad o-ring or solenoid. Finally he told me “Oh, that makes sense.” And this was a transmission shop, yet they didn’t have more than generic scan tools and no scope!
Thanks for the wishes about my kid. You know kids…sick for a day and a half, slept through Thanksgiving, woke up at 9pm and said “what is there to eat, I’m hungry.” All better now.
I’m not a professional mechanic, but I’ve learned that some common sense reasoning can often get me to the point where I can narrow down the solution to a problem. Years ago, I had a 1990 Ford Aerostar that I purchased second hand but had warranty left. I was coming back from a trip and the Aerostar was running poorly. I suspected that one cylinder wasn’t functioning. I took the car to the dealer and an hour later received a telephone call where the service writer said, “There is something wrong with your Aerostar”. “I know that”, I replied. “I brought it out to be repaired and not for a social visit”. The service writer replied, “We can’t repair it because the computer doesn’t tell us what to do”. The check engine light wasn’t on. I responded, “You are the dealer for Ford. What am I supposed to do?” The reply was “Do you have any suggestions?” I then suggested that they pull each plug wire and when they pulled a wire that didn’t make any difference it would pinpoint the nonfunctioning cylinder. “Can’t do that”, the service writer replied. “On warranty work, we are only allowed to do what the computer tells us to do”. I then said, “I’ll pay for an hour of technician time if my suggestion doesn’t narrow down the problem. If it does tell you what is wrong, you fix it on your dime”. After a little discussion, the service writer took me up on my offer. An hour later, I received a call that my vehicle was indeed fixed and there was no charge. When I picked up the Aerostar, I pressed them for the problem. They finally told me that they replaced a spark plug and showed me the defective plug. Part of the ceramic tip was broken away. After I examined the plug, I said 'I think I’ll be back again with the same problem". The service manager assured me that the new plug had cleared up the problem. Three months later I was back with the same problem. I reasoned that something had caused the ceramic on the spark plug to break and thought it might be coolant somehow getting into the cylinder. When they did strip off the cylinder head, they found a hairline crack in the head. The coolant that got through the crack had also scored the cylinder wall and the entire engine was replaced, fortunately on warranty.
Now I am sure that the diagnostic equipment is better than what was available in 1992. However, even today, a little reasoning goes a long way to diagnosing a problem. I remember one of the series of Popular Science “Tales From the Model Garage” where Stan, who was the mechanic hired by the proprietor, Gus Wilson, bet the local trade school that Gus could find the cause of a problem in a car that wasn’t running right without an ignition scope or a compression gauge, the diagnostic equipment of the day. Gus had each of the trade school students write down the student’s solution to the problem. Gus, without any tools, proceeded to find the problem which was different than any of the students had supplied for an answer. However, after he won the bet, he hooked up the scope to another car that had been brought to his shop. When Stan quizzed him on using modern tools, Gus replied, “Modern equipment makes life a lot easier”.
“We are only allowed to do what the computer tells us to do.”
That sums up the entire problem. Without computers, mechanics would be forced to learn how to diagnose the way Gus did…by observing, hypothesizing, and testing those hypotheses systematically. But computers have turned many people into lobotomized robots unable or unwilling to think for themselves.
@jesmed–I agree with you. I taught classes in computer hardware and architecture. In the class, we often had to convert from one base to another–decimal, binary, hexadecimal. I would not permit my students to use calculators on exams, but to reason out the answer. I had one class where before every test I would get the question: “Are we allowed to use calculators?” After hearing this question for two of the exams and saying “No”, I changed my response when the question was asked before the third exam. That time I said “Yes”. When the students took the exam, I noted which students used calculators and which students did not use calculators on my seating chart. The results were interesting: to a student, those who did not use calculators got the base conversion problems correct and those who used the calculators got the problems wrong. Now I have nothing against using calculators, but the reasoning must be there. I had colleagues in mathematics education who believe that children in elementary school should be allowed to use calculators. Their reasoning is that the arithmetic gets in the way of learning mathematics. I disagree. I believe that mastering arithmetic is a path into learning higher level mathematics. In fact, I irritated these colleagues when they found out that I made the following statement to my class: “If I taught in the elementary school, I would tell the students that there are two things that go in the wastebasket: 1) your calculator; 2) your chewing gum. You have a brain to thing with so you don’t need your calculator and if you need something to chew, I have a tin of Mail Pouch tobacco on my desk”.
For a professional mechanic, the diagnostic equipment is certainly an aid to repairing an engine or transmission, but an understanding of how the engine or transmission functions is essential to making the repair. The diagnostic computer is certainly an aid to diagnosing a problem, just as the calculator is an aid to solving a mathematical problem. However, in both cases, the understanding must be there.
Observation is also essential to solving a problem. Years ago when I was living at home, a neighbor who had rented the house next door came over and asked if we had a 20 ampere fuse. My dad gave him a fuse only to have him come back about 5 minutes later and said that he needed help because the new fuse blew right away. I said that we would take a light bulb, screw it into the fuse socket and disconnect devices until the bulb went out. Well, my dad and I took a flashlight and went down in the dark basement. My dad shined the light around and said, “Forget screwing the bulb into the fuse panel. I know what the problem is”. He then proceeded over to one corner of the basement, did something, and then put in a new fuse. The lights came on right away and the fuse didn’t blow. When we left the neighbor’s house, I asked my dad “What did you do to fix the problem?” He replied, “I disconnected the sump pump”. I then asked, “How did you know that was problem?”. He replied, "Well, it’s been raining and we know every house with a basement in our neighborhood has a sump pump. I shined the flashlight around and saw that the sump was full of water. I made a guess that the sump pump might be the problem so I unplugged it. Saved us a lot of time, didn’t it?"
I thought about that years later when I got less than a block from home in my old 1978 Oldsmobile and the car died. It felt like it had run out of gas, but the tank was almost full. I took the cover off the air cleaner and peering into the carburetor, I saw no gas squirt in when I pulled the accelerator linkage. I walked back home and had my wife push me home with the minivan. I then called AAA and had them tow the car to my independent shop which is less than half a mile from my house. Twenty minutes after the tow truck left my driveway, my mechanic called and said, “Your car is fixed and the charge is $12”. When I picked up the car, I said, “You didn’t replace the fuel pump that quickly and for only $12”. “No”, he replied. “When the wrecker brought your car in, he was towing it from the back. I saw gas leaking out from under the car. Some animal nibbled on the fuel line up by the fuel pump. When the car had the back end in the air, the gas tank was higher than the engine and caused the fuel to leak”.
@Triedaq says: “For a professional mechanic, the diagnostic equipment is certainly an aid to repairing an engine or transmission, but an understanding of how the engine or transmission functions is essential to making the repair.”
Well, it’s a bit more than an aid. In fact, often times it’s an indispensable component, as important as the faulty part being replaced. I may find a faulty throttle body on your engine, and I can replace it, but without the scan tool to relearn the throttle to your specific engine it still won’t work correctly. I have a car in now that has no instrument cluster operation, caused by a faulty Body Control Module. I’ll order in a new module, but after I install it the car will not even start until I use some computer device to set-up and program the replacement module.
But yes, as you say, too many times a tech is trying to repair a system without even knowing how it operates. That’s a recipe for parts tossing.
In defense of your dealer experience, warranty repairs are paid for by the manufacturer, not the dealer. And the manufacturer has put very strict limits on what the dealer can do to answer a specific complaint. In today’s terms, if a car presents with an engine light and fault code P0171, the technician is instructed to do A, B, C and/or D, depending in the results from C. If the published service material does not mention doing E or F, the dealer won’t do it, because he’s hamstrung by the original engineers ideas of how that system will fail. Back in 1990 there was no step in misfire diagnosis for the Aerostar that included “check for pinhole cracks in cylinder head.” The dealer certainly could have done that, but he wouldn’t have been paid by Ford for doing it. Currently, GM is paying .3 hours for a check engine light complaint under warranty. That means the mechanic will earn 20 minutes of pay to test drive the car, scan for codes and monitor live data, determine the system at fault and do testing as needed to find the root cause. It’s no wonder they don’t want to do a thorough diagnosis anymore.
Let’s also remember that some manufacturers only pay for diagnosis that directly leads to the cause
It makes sense in a way, except for one thing:
Testing which eliminates things is not paid for
So, in a sense, it’s as if the mechanic is expected to “know” what the problem is ahead of time. And he only gets paid for testing which confirms that. The mechanic suspects that d is the cause of the problem. Any testing which rules out a, b and c is not paid for.
And some manufacturers only pay a very small amount for diagnosis, perhaps up to an hour. So if you’ve got a real challenge on your hand, you’d better be fast, or figure out a way to get paid “on the shop”
One place I worked for always promised to pay me on the shop, but they never did
It can be brutal in the trenches . . .
@asemaster–you are correct about how indispensable the diagnostic equipment is on today’s cars. As I think about it, my independent tire shop had to plug a scan tool into the computer socket on my 2011 Sienna after installing new tires to reset the tire pressure monitor system.
The Aerostar was a problem from almost the day I bought it. It was used, but did have factory warranty left. After I had the vehicle for a month, it wouldn’t shift out of low range when cold until it was driven a couple of miles. Also, there was a miss in the engine when it was first started that lasted about 45 seconds. The dealer removed the transmission for a rebuild and diagnosed the engine miss as a blown head gasket. Both head gaskets were replaced and the valves ground at 20,000 miles at no cost to me. The transmission had to be taken down twice. When I got the Aerostar back, it wouldn’t shift into overdrive. The overdrive band had been left out and was on the technician’s workbench. All was well for about 6 months and then the problem started up again. That was the point at which the spark plug had a ceramic insulator at the center electrode that was burned away. After the plug was replaced and the problem showed up again a few months later was when the cracked head was discovered.
I give the dealer credit for finally getting to the root of the problem and replacing the engine at no cost to me. I was surprised when the miss showed up and the technician wasn’t allowed to short out or pull the wire off each spark plug in turn to see which cylinder had the problem.
Auto repair isn’t the only field where there are a few incompetent personnel. I had a frightening experience at another Ford dealer where I bought my 2000 Windstar that had nothing to do with the vehicle. The Windstar suddenly wouldn’t idle without stalling. I called the dealer and was told to bring it down. If they couldn’t fix it right away, they would send me back in a loaner. While I was at the dealer waiting for a diagnosis, a young high school girl went up to the service counter and was asking if anyone knew anything about geometry. When none of the personnel offered to help, I volunteered to see what I could do. I have a master’s degree in mathematics and a doctorate in research design and statistics. Well, it took me 20 minutes to decipher the language in her geometry textbook as the book was so poorly written I worked a couple of the problems and then had her do the rest of the problems for me. I was really disturbed by this, so when I returned the loaner the next day to retrieve the Windstar, I asked about the girl. It turned out that she was the daughter of one of the owners of the agency. When I was asked if I wanted to talk to him, I said that I did. In talking with the owner, he told me that there were real problems. The teacher didn’t understand the text book, couldn’t give much of an explanation and the students were on their own to try to do the problems. The owner of the agency thanked me for the time I spent helping his daughter. I can’t accuse people in other fields not being competent when there is so much incompetence in my field.
“Testing which eliminates things is not paid for”
@db4690–This is the same problem I face in doing research. In trying to solve a problem, I don’t know how many times I have hit a dead end in a blind alley. Fortunately, I was not on the clock as a mechanic is in a shop. It is a good thing that mechanic solve the problem more rapidly than I found a solution that would lead to a publication or there would be very few running automobiles.
I love solving problems, math has been a forte for me in my life, but I was dumbfounded when my daughter was having problem with a math question, it was out of my league but 4 years ago my recollection is: compound a looses an electron, what is the resulting atomic weight.
@asemaster, to be honest, I can’t think of what if any misfire codes on a 1994 Mark VIII would be. I owned a 94 before the current 96 and don’t ever remember a need to access the DTCs for any reason because the car was basically bullet-proof. It was running like new at 249K+ miles when some doofus chose to run his Dodge pickup through a red light and broadsided the right rear quarter.
The only running fault I ever suffered with that car was a failed fuel pump and that was due to a prematurely clogged fuel filter. The filter was not causing any performance issue at all; just putting an unnecessary strain on the pump with said pump going belly-up 1500 miles later after making the prediction to my better half.
The earlier Marks used essentially the same emissions/engine management as the 96 and newer models. The difference was that the 96 and up use the 16 pin OBD II connector under the dash and the earlier used the STAR type EEC-IV connector under the hood. In fact, other than the one-year only 96 variable intake runners, everything on them is interchangeable as far as I know.
As to warranty, I can’t speak for that with domestics but with the Japanese cars it’s total cxxp and I’ve often ragged on Subaru over that issue for one reason; they’re the worst offender and have cost both me and the company a pretty fair amount of money and aggravation.
Electrical or engine management diagnosis was generally .2 hours no matter how involved. (Note decimal…)
“On warranty work, we are only allowed to do what the computer tells us to do”.
Taken from a conversation between Triedaq and a sevice writer. This “dance” is an attempt to get you to pay for the diagnostic time if the failure is not covered by the warranty.
With you vehicles background he wasn’t going to call you about a sparkplug.
The dealers that I have worked for never charged a diagnostic fee for on a vehicle that was still under warranty. I have check out many vehicles without compansation for repairs that were not covered by the warranty when the owners chose to have the vehicle repaired elsewhere.
@ok4450, yeah, that’s what I was getting at. Cars had misfires before 1996, we just had to be able to know how to fix them without a fault code telling us where to look. I’m sure you had your specific way of identifying the misfiring cylinder, and some procedure and equipment you used to test ignition, fuel injector, etc. That should all still be the same, whether the car is a 2007 or a 1977 model. Sure coil-on-plug ignition and inaccessible rear spark plugs may make the methods different, but it all comes down to the same thing, compressed air charge, fuel, and spark. All easily tested and verified as good or bad. And whether you’re using a vacuum gauge or a FirstLook waveform sensor, you’re either guessing or you’re not. And I see far too much guessing going on.
.3 or .2 hours to find a problem…riight…you can’t drive the car around the block and get it hooked up in your stall in .2. Guy writing the labor guide must have been the same guy who wrote the service manual procedure “substitute known good part and retest.”