@dagosa - maybe this is why some folks who have problem with math say “It’s all Greek to me!”
I had to learn the assembly language for a CDC 6600, the IBM assembly language, the DEC-10 assembly language and Intel assembly language.
For the CDC…was that when Cray was designing their systems before he branched off and started Cray systems.
Never worked with DEC-10 Assembler…but I did do some work on the PDP-11’s and Vax assembler. I worked at DEC for 12 years before our group was disbanded.
But nowadays…very few work is done in assembly…Even device drivers are now written in C/C++. Did some work with Intel assembler. But that was mainly when I switched from going Vax C programming to PC DOS C++. Because of the limitations of the systems (mostly 16 bit) and the operating systems (640k limit)…if you wrote a program over 1meg…it was difficult to debug. Products like Soft-Ice were useful…but many times the only way to debug was to use the assembler debugger.
True story about where knowing the low level of computer architecture helps.
We got a new piece of equipment in. We had to communicate with it from our systems. The equipment was a dumb processor…and had a communication bus which we had to write our own communication protocol to. Well our PC’s are LSB MSB…while the device we had to connect to was MSB LSB. Some of the junior engineers who went to some pretty good colleges…had no idea how to handle this. It was either myself or this other old timer who had experience in this area to write a conversion dll library.
@texases
For them, there is nothing wrong with it being Greek…as long as they know the Greek they will need.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=greek+symbols+in+math&qpvt=greek+symbols+in+math&FORM=IGRE
Kind of a running joke in our classes…“thankfully, it is finally Greek to you !!”
Half of physics was learning the Greek alphabet.
That’s part of the problem with kids learning math when a Greek or other symbol defines an entire concept…the “short hand” in math can be very confusing.
Yeah, I guess that’s true. An EE is sort of like a math major w/a hobby. Physics too.
“An EE is sort of like a math major w/a hobby”
What math majors tell each other to feel better…
Intersetingly, there have been people in other professions that have mathematics as a hobby. Thomas Bayes, a minister in the Reformed Church, derived a theorem in conditional probability that bears his name “Bayes Theorem”. This theorem is the basis for Bayesian statistics. However, Bayes thought his important lifetime contribution was a couple of papers in theology.
The operatic bass singer Jerome Hines (1921-2003) was interested in mathematics. When he presented a concert at the university where I taught, he came to the mathematics department the next day to meet with us and discuss a mathematical theory.
Good post @Trideq. There’s a few wealthy businessmen who have math as their hobby too.
Landon T. Clay for example.
"Clay’s expensive hobbies have kept him busy since he stepped down as chair of the financial services company Eaton Vance in 1997. An armchair mathematician—even though he majored in English at Harvard—he underwrote the Clay Mathematics Institute in Cambridge, which is offering $1 million for each answer to seven of the most significant unsolved math problems (a Russian mathematician is said to be close to solving one). "
Math, physics, and any technology all go hand in hand.
And, sadly, the primary and secondary schools have largely focused these past decades on “feeling good” rather than thes truely crutial and core subjects. For too many years now over 50% of the students in engineering, science, and technology courses have come from foreign countries. The majority of our current HS graduates simply do not have the foundation to handle the subject matter.
For many years now, at student college parties, engineering and science students are often made fun of as being “too focused”, and not knowing how to enjoy themselves. Unfortunately, our competitors, China, Russia, India, Korea, Japan, and others all value science and engineering and put a great push on these subjects.
My wife likes watching “The Big Bang Theory”, a program about brilliant nerds. The scary part about this is that in the countries I mentioned these guys would be HEROS!
And, sadly, the primary and secondary schools have largely focused these past decades on "feeling good" rather than thes truely crutial and core subjects.
I think a major part of the problem is unqualified teachers in these subjects and towns unwilling to pay to get the qualified teachers. In my town of the 6-8 math teachers…only 2 have a technical degree. At least one teacher I know of has a degree in English. I think they lack the ability to teach the kids and motivate them because they barely know the material themselves. They weren’t motivated enough as students themselves in Math so how are they going to motivate their students??? That’s one reason we spent the money to send our kids to private schools. I use to work with one of the Math teachers. He retired early and decided to teach math. Tried the public system for a while but was very very discouraged of the whole system. He has a BS and MS in physics from RPI. Really knows the subject. When he graduated from college some 30+ years ago he looked into teaching…but was offered a job at Digital Equipment at over 4 times the teachers salary.
It’s hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. I was at a bookstore a few years ago and there were 5 or 6 what appeared to be high school students with college entrance books spread all over the floor, you know, looking through them to decide which college to go to. I asked them what they wanted to major in, what profession, and one said CPA, another said Lawyer, another said Business Major, another said Physician, another said City Planner.
Now maybe this wouldn’t be that surprising, except that I’m right here in the middle of Silicon Valley. I’d have expected quite a few “Engineers and Scientists”. But no. Not a one.
So I asked why no engineers or scientist aspirations? One of them said to me “My dad is an engineer, and he got layed off after the company hired an H1B visa holder to do the job instead. So my dad got another job as an engineer with another company, which he then lost when the company outsourced that work to another country.” The others said “Yes, the word on the street is that engineering and scientific work, especially computer programming, is all too easily outsourced or insourced to be viable any more as a profession.”
That’s probably overstating the case a bit, but there is clear concern among students that paying for a 4 year degree in engineering or science won’t yield a good paying job anymore, at least not here in the USA.
The others said "Yes, the word on the street is that engineering and scientific work, especially computer programming, is all too easily outsourced or insourced to be viable any more as a profession."
It is easily outsourced. But the market right now is growing so fast that they have to hire here in the US and wages are going up. The market for SW engineers has been strong for almost 2 years now. I do know many SW engineers who can’t find a job…but most of that has to do with NOT keeping up with current technology. The computer field changes faster then any other field. What you learned 3 years ago is almost obsolete. People get complacent and not proactive in keeping their skills up. Then when there’s a hickup in the economy and they loose their job…they find that they don’t have the skills other companies want.
The others said “Yes, the word on the street is that engineering and scientific work, especially computer programming, is all too easily outsourced or insourced to be viable any more as a profession.”
I think that the problem for prospective college students is giving credibiltiy to “the word on the street”. I tjhink MikeInNH said it all with the statement “I do know many SW engineers who can’t find a job…but most of that has to do with NOT keeping up with current technology”. If these SW engineers were really excited about the field, they would have kept up with current technology.
My advice to prospective college students is to follow your passion. Top students in any field ultimately find positions that lead to successful lives. When a student does not know what field to study, that may be the best reason for going to college. My advice to my son when he began his college studies was “Listen to the upperclassmen and find out which professors they consider to be too demanding, then go sign up for couses with these demanding professors. I don’t care what the field of study is”. My son took my advice and graduated as a theology major and in the four year time period. His first job was an assistant manager at a children’s home. He then went to seminary to study children’s ministry. While in seminary, he started working with a church and then married the minister’s daughter. As he was finishing his thesis, he took at job at Sears as a salesman in the hardware department. Upon completion of the degree, he accepted what was to be an interim position in a private school teaching in the elementary division. He loved the work so much that he went back to school in the evenings and summers to earn state certification. He then was appointed the faculty of a laboratory school connected with a university. Part of his teaching duties are to work with student teachers to help them become successful. His new goal is to work with prospective teachers to help them be successful in the field.
About 20 years ago, a colleague and I received a small grant to teach at-risk college students algebra through some simple computer programming in Basic. We taught this experimental course under a Computer Science class number. One at-risk student who was suppose to be in this class was placed in a regular computer science class being taught that had the same class number. We discovered the mistake 3 weeks into the semester. I looked at her grades at that point and she was passing the course. I told her that it was too late to switch to the other class, but to stay where she was and not drop the class. I told her that I would work with her provided she attend class every day, do all the projects, attend all the help sessions, and if she had a problem with an assignment before it was due, she was to see me or my graduate assistant. She completed the course with a high “B” grade. I didn’t think about her until she came to my office three weeks into the next semester. She rattled off a string of math courses through calculus and linear algebra and said "Do you think I’m smart enough to take these classes?’ I responded, “That’s the dumbest question you’ve ever asked. Of course you are”. She then said "I would like to tell you my problem. When I was in high school, I was advised not to attempt college because I would find the work too difficult. When I came to campus and met with an advisor, I was told that with my record, I would have a difficult time, but I might make it as a speech major. She said she didn’t want to major in speech. When I asked her what field interested her, she replied “mathematical economics”. Well, she did major in mathematical economics and graduated with a 3.8 grade point average (out of a 4.0). After a summer working for a research firm, she came back to pursue a master’s degree in computer science. Her money ran out before she could complete the degree, so she took a position as a software engineer and within two years had a 6 figure salary.
IMHO, a college eductation is to educate a person for many different fields and not to train a student for a specific job. Some of the best graduate students I have had in computer science came from music. There is a connection: in music, one puts notes and rests together in a measure, then puts the measures together to make the musical phrase. The phrases then go together to complete the composition. In computer science, one puts the commands together to do a procedure, and then the procedures are linked to complete the program. The reasoning is the same.
There are students who have a passion for a particular career when they begin their college studies. and that is great as long as its a passion for the field and not entering a field because that is where the word on the street says that that is where the top paying jobs are.
When my kids would each get a couple years into a program and wonder if they really wanted to finish, I reminded them they were more then half way out of the woods. Even upon completion, you will have a degree that shows everyone you worked and succeeded at something very difficult and time consuming. You later want to be an officer in the military ? They are smart enough to value any degree as a starting point.
My son in law, whom I did not know at the time, took my advice to heart…spiritually I guess. After finishing his third complete college degree and still not knowing what he really wanted to do , suddenly realized he was the ideal hybrid employee. With his varied education, he now writes his own ticked, spends time with his kids when HE wants and has informed me…"move South any time, we will follow you with the grandchildren. Your daughter ( in medical field) and I can get a job anywhere we want. "
Today’s kid have to realize, where they intend to go, they may not end up.
Thanks for the comments everybody. The problem is that the students aren’t seeing it that way. They are not enrolling in advanced science and math programs like they used to. I’m not claiming to know all their reasons, but this appears to me to be a major problem and will affect the US more than many of the problems we commonly see reported in the news. Just my opinion.
“The number of engineering doctorates awarded by US universities to US citizens dropped by 23% in the past decade.”
23% drop in engineering PH D’s by US citizens in just a decade?
I think you’ll find the problem is in the secondary education system. Not having qualified teachers in math and science who can motivate the kids in these fields is the biggest reason for the huge drop-off. Back when I was in school teachers were considered a professional job with pay that was comparable to other professions. Today in many parts of this country (like NH) their pay is well below competitive salary in other fields. In the public schools we are no longer getting qualified teachers in the Math and Sciences. Sure - you’ll find SOME qualified teachers…but as a whole the good ones are getting jobs as engineers that pay 2-3 times what a starting teachers salary is.
Mike, I would extend the responsibility to include the primary educational system. And perhaps beyond… the schools and the school systems are run by liberal arts graduates with propensities toward politics. Perhaps that’s where we need to begin to fix the systems; at the top levels.
I think that the overhaul in our educational system needs to begin in state run colleges and universities. The states fund these institutions based on enrollment and retention. Often, the funding is based on a graduation rate–how many students graduate in four or five years. As a result, the bar has been lowered. The average time spend outside of class a student spends studying has dropped from an average of 24 hours in the 1970s to about 15 hours today. Many of the freshmen classes are taught by graduate assistants and adjunct faculty. Tenure line faculty are expected to do research and bring in grant money. From the grant money these faculty bring in, over 40% is absorbed by the administration for “overhead”. This money often goes into increasing the salaries of the administrators and hiring more administrators.
I would suggest that we reform universities. Let the students know that the path will involve work. Luxury dormitories aren’t needed–the students will be too busy to spend time in these suites–they will be there just to sleep. Let the students experience hard work but from that hard work get the satisfaction of accomplishment.