engine view #4
engine view #3
engine view #2
engine #1 does not exist so that file must be a written file of some sort and not pictures.
So just to answer a future question as to where the view #1 is? It is not a picture.
Thanks
eurvale1, you have to read through the comments to get involved in this post. We are not on this post to talk about who is dreaming or under some illusions from smoking and that did not even warrant a responsebut… I am reading these for real answers from a forum of educated mechanics and car enthusiasts and yes, I am typing fast and miss a letter or two in the sentences or even see that I missed a word. You know these things- once you hit submit, it is out there. So just live with the real world please and try to read beyond the missing letters and maybe even words. If you need clarification, ask. Thank you.
The oil sent to Citgo reflects 123 miles on the new oil and filers. The oil sent was so dirty that of course it would be based on the pictures you see. But Citgo said they can tell other things from the oil and the sludge submitted. Those “thing” were not divulged to us. That is okay- that is why we sent it in. also an independent company is testing it.
The sludge of 40,000 miles is the key there they say.
What is the DFI system, bladecutter?
Posts for pictures 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 of the sludged engine are around post #s 140+
posts for actual pictures 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 of sludged engine are around posts #140+
Those are some interesting pictures, Anne.
If it were a BMW engine, they would say that was an acceptable level of deposits.
Notice how the valves are free of any deposits, and the deposits are only built up on parts that don’t move.
The only picture that concerns me is picture #4, the one of the front of the cam shaft adjusters. Those devices are what allows the camshafts to have the valve opening and closing events change. Sludge build up on those, if they then impede the ability of the devices to change the valve’s timing, would probably set off a Check Engine Light, and impact vehicle performance.
The other issue with all the sludge build it is that is can impede the ability of the oil to flow back down to the bottom of the oil pan. This can cause leaks past the valve cover due to pressure build up, and oil starvation to the bottom end since all the oil is in the cam valleys, and can’t get back down below.
What I would like to know is what actually caused the engine to set off the Check Engine Light the last time. I would also like to see the intake valves through the intake manifold port (I bet they look just as bad, if not worse, than your valve train area), and the pistons.
Have they taken off the oil pan?
How much sludge was down there.
Honestly, this engine isn’t that bad.
Toyota has had their mechanics take off the cylinder heads, and soak them overnight in cleaner to remove those deposits, and then reassembled the engines in the past to remove deposits much worse than that.
Here’s a link to a Toyota Mechanic that was authorized to do just this, and shows before and after pictures of the engine in question:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html
I would think a full clean up of the engine would restore it to operational condition once again.
I still believe the drivability issue has yet to be addressed properly.
Yes, there’s sludge. But the engine wasn’t seized.
Did they perform a compression test and a leak down test on the motor before they removed it from the truck?
As to assign blame for the sludge, really, the answer is going to lay on GM’s hands.
They designed the engine. They attached the DFI system to it. They attached the OLM system to it.
DFI is Direct Fuel Injection.
This means that the fuel injector is mounted in a way that it sprays fuel directly into the combustion chamber. More typical fuel injection systems are called Port Injection. Sometimes Tuned Port, or Multi-Port. This means that the fuel is sprayed before the intake valve, and is sucked into the combustion chamber by the intake stroke of the piston.
Most companies that have sold vehicles that use engines that have a DFI system installed, have been having troubles with gasoline contamination of the engine oil, which leads to the sludge build up that you see on your engine.
Anyway, someone is going to pay to have your engine repaired. It won’t be you.
Here’s how I see this playing out:
Citgo is going to look at the pictures, and eventually ask if the sludge has lead to excessive bearing clearances, or wear in the cylinder bores. Your dealer will have to tear apart the engine further, and they will say No. Citgo will then ask what the reason why the engine was torn down. Dealer will say drivability issues. Citgo will then point out the combustion chamber and intake valve deposits, and say those are responsible, but not caused by the engine oil.
GM will then have to take the blame, and repair the engine on their dime as they are the ones who designed the fuel injection system, and the PCV system, that introduces the oil vapor into the intake system, which then clogs up the intake valves and combustion chambers with excessive deposits.
If you don’t already have the telephone to your regional manager for GM, get it, and put pressure on them in order to get your engine cleaned up, and installed again so that you can keep driving the truck you bought, and had been enjoying.
I doubt there is actual damage done to your engine as of yet.
I bet there are deposits in the combustion chamber that caused the CEL and drivability issues.
You should concentrate on getting GM to fix your engine, and get you back up and running.
Then after that, I would recommend a shorter oil change interval in order to prevent this from happening again. I recommend a maximum of 5k miles for any vehicle with DFI at this point in time.
BC.
Posting etiquette, however, says that you should read the entire thread before making comments, because there might be new information that was provided in the thread that you don’t know yet, but is sitting there waiting for you to look at, that might then change your comments.
If someone is too lazy to read an entire thread, they should keep quiet.
BC.
Bladecutter, Thank you for taking the time to access the pictures. Your questions I cannot answer at this time. I do know that after the pictures were taken, the next step was to get the car up and running and I feel sure since the “lubricant warranty” reqwuirements have been met and that citgo has them, the new engine has been ordered. I do know the timetable for the dealership was by the end of this upcoming week the car would be ready to drive. I had told them I was afraid of the car and wanted to trade it in. Iwas a little disappointed that the figure of $18,500 was being kicked around (especially since I owe $24,000) and that would be all I had to put down on another car. I was looking at an Equniox since I need the SUV capacity many times but not that 3rd seat of the Traverse.
So in essence I would be coming up the additional difference $6 grand to add to the cost of a new car. Een though AI get a GM family employee discount, if I have to add the $6 grand I owe to the new car price, I am a little higher than the list price on a new Equinox. So even if I do not pay out on the engine repair cost, I get hit with a $6 grand debt on paying off the Traverse before I buy a new car. If I just keep driving my Traverse, I would be better off but I am a little afraid of getting stranded again. That was one scary situation- late Saturay night in the middle of nowhere, 29 degrees and OnStar telling me to get out of the car for my safety and I waited for 45 minutes for help and then had to call a neighbor to drive 3 hours to pick me up and 3 hrs home. I had triple AAA, Roadside assistance, Onstar, private insurance, etc. but the services were not available late at night on a weekend. It was an ordeal and still is. Thanks for your introspection.
Okay- you are right, I just thought if you really want to get involved with this post, it would be very beneficial to read from the beginning. And I know this post has a long following. Sorry if I mislead you on your comments. All comments are welcome. I am in a learning mode here and do not want to discourage anyone from commenting.
Those pics show a severely sludged/coked engine due to oil changes not being performed often enough. Arguing over who is at fault is another matter.
The pics also do not show the inside of the oil pan and the oil pump pickup screen and one can safely assume those are clogged over and restricting the flow of oil into the oil pressure galleys. The first thing in line for damage is the crankshaft journals and bearings.
There always seems to be a fixation with the engine top end when it comes to oil sludge matters but the lower end is generally what will cause engine seizures, loss of power, etc.
Odds are if the pan is dropped and some bearing caps are removed one would find some serious issues with the crankshaft journals and bearings.
Whether you repair this car or buy another you are going to have to do a few things to prevent this happening again.
Ignore that OLM and adopt a time/mileage oil change regimen that is real world.
Raise the hood every few weeks and check the engine oil level along with other fluids.
To put things in perspective…I’d say 99-99.9% of the people on this site change their oil at about 3-5000 miles. AND they have been doing this the entire life of their vehicles. Even when using Synthetic I wouldnt go NEAR 12,700 miles on one oil change. I dont care if thats what someone said they did at some point. The oil serves several functions in addition to these…One to lubricate…obviously…two to cool…and third…it absorbs the byproducts of combustion…in the form of carbon or soot… SO if an oil mfg says you can go over 10K…How is this type of oil dealing with all of the accumulated soot and carbon particulate that it has accumulated by burning over 10K worth of fuel…ANSWER? IT DOESNT…it just keeps taking on more particulate until it doesnt flow properly and clogging up your poor oil filter…after that all kinds of hell break loose.
NEVER go beyond 7K on one change. That is my absolute limit on SYnth…and I have never one it at 7K… 5K was my longest on one change using Full Synth. It just isnt worth the gamble…its not that costly and youe engine absolutely deserves nice clean oil in the crankcase it does quite enough for you day in day out to leave its most vital fluid in question. Oil changes should be done between 3 and 5K miles…End of story.
If they are putting in a new engine, there is no reason to be afraid of the car.
We know you now now how often to change the oil, and how often to check it, so I doubt you will have any problems again in the future.
Just keep it until you either have it paid off, or until you are no longer under water in the loan.
BC.
Tough Love 101 - “I had told them I was afraid of the car and wanted to trade it in. Iwas a little disappointed that the figure of $18,500 was being kicked around (especially since I owe $24,000) and that would be all I had to put down on another car.”
Sorry, but I find this astounding. First, I can’t believe anybody would have a car loan balance of $24,000 (or a new loan for that matter) who is not in a position to pay it off if need be. You are living beyond your means and are inviting problems like this one.
Also, it seems to me that you are upside down on this vehicle loan. You might as well bite the bullet and take a hit now because with what you owe and how many miles you drive I can’t see how you’d ever be anything other than behind the 8-ball. I think the longer you have this car, the farther in the hole you’ll go. The loan was flawed from the get-go.
You have two problems. A trashed vehicle and living beyond your means. I recommend to stop buying expensive vehicles until a time that you can afford them. Furthermore, with your insistance on using the OLMS you will probably repeat this disaster. I do all maintenance and almost all repairs on our 7 cars and I do not change oil in accordance with the OLMS . . . period. I look at it as a curiosity. I stay with my standard change schedule that allows me to drive vehicles for hundreds of thousands of sludge-free miles.
Take a loss if necessary, get out from under this debt and this abused car, buy a used car that you can pay off in a couple of years, or pay cash, and make it car that you can afford to throw away when it blows up.
By the way, I’ve read every post. Good luck to you.
CSA
Dear CommonSenseAnswer. Hey CSA, I have been responding to you throughout. But while the financial aspect of this is not the issue, I will answer that harsh comment. That comment reminds me of a person chastized an associate for parking in a handicapped parking place because she looked as if she were perfectly fine. Then the lady just politely and quietly unhooked her leg prosthetic and shocked the other person. That other person never said another thing to anybody using the handicapped parking places again and learned a lesson that what you see or read is not always the whole picture. So please just stick with the sludged engine. I am sorry I brought up another issue asking about the price of cars and trade in values. This was not that forum.
By the way I have family who have been out of jobs for years and just got back on their feet and I GAVE my last new (less than 2 yr old) car to that person so they could find a job and have transportation. It had no loan nor did I ask for any money for the car. It has been years since I have had a loan on a car. I bought a car straight out for another family member who also lost their job. Both hardships for family members were because of economy and mega companies and the government had downsized/laid off thousands of employees. Before the “tough love 101” comment goes any further, please understand sacrifices we made to help others. I have the assets to buy a car straight out, I chose not too in the economy at the time due to interet rates versus stocks and bonds return. Yes, even if it means taking one’s self down a notch in their financial picture, family comes first. You can always replace a car.
…And that is all I am going to say about the price I paid versus trade in. The remainder of the forum is about the sludged engine please and again I respect the years of experience represented in this forum and will continue to read the comments. Thank you.
I was wondering what part of the country you are living. In the North East, I would never get 12000 mile OLM changes.
The area is North Carolina.
Still after all these 160 some odd responses, GM and dealership service mgr still stand by just watching the OLM. There is still the oil suspect and fast lube service suspect. And I am very educated in under the hood importance. My new name is the Goodwrench lady. That should be my new car talk sign. Kidding. I thought we were through with this post. But then I was able to get the pictures and it throws a different light on some of your comments. And some of you are very educated in being able to look at pictures and still have thoughts. I think you all by now see how serious I am about this car’s failure details. Thanks.