Yep JT,people that had everything to lose had the courage to face the opposition and we are the the beneficiaries(or were at anyrate).But to sort of paraphrase Eric Peters,“Cloverism” is taking over-as long the the “Clovers” have thier stockcar races ,ballgames and wide screen TVs all is right with the country,while we enjoy our freedoms.
Ayn Rand had a suprising grasp of the way things are,though I do believe she was a bit extreme in some instances,she was right that people need to work and not become parasites,but unbrideled capitalism can bring out the worst in people.I always thought that it was weird that a certain individual almost bankrupted GM and was rewarded with a " Golden Parachute" worth well over a million dollars.While concientiuos people get their but reamed if they happen to be 5 minutes late when they have leave for work in the wee hours off the morning,the list goes on but Karma sometimes has a way of showing people the error of their ways-Kevin
"What’s to stop GM from screwing up again… ?"
What’s to stop the banks, Boeing, Raytheon or Bath Iron works from screwing up. We are all car guys and acutely interested in the world through the eyes of buying cars. But, BP definitely screwed up…we take every venture, one step at a time and make a decision.
If you lived in Michigan in stead of NH, you just maybe, might see things differently. One million jobs would have been negatively affected. Lest we forget, GM was in a precarious position but surviving unitil the recession hit and literally no one had discretionary funds to buy a car; everyone’s sales went down ! Bush-nomics is as much to blame as poor management.
Going through bankruptcy always hurts the little guy…the liquidation process ALWAYS results in those at the top getting their cut first, and doing quite well. Romney-nomics 101 !
Only 12% of the US population belongs to a union. Many states, including Michigan, are right to work states. The UAW cannot compel anyone in Michigan to join the union or pay union dues anymore. Unions really are on the endangered list.
Maybe not, but I bet the union workers make it hell for the non-union workers in the same plant.
I don’t remember which union it was that came to my plant, but they were hitting up all 5 plants here in Ohio to try and get people to sign their petitions to come in. Our bosses have already said that we couldn’t be competitive in the market if we get a union. It’s hard enough when LG and Samsung have been caught “dumping” their appliances into the US; we don’t have TVs and cellphones to help offset selling appliances at a loss
Do the economic intellectuals see a “minimum” wage rate for entry level and semi-skilled workers? Or would they just calculate the cost/profit and let the chips fall where they may?
Maybe we need to castrate that Wall St bull and put him out to pasture until he is ready for the feast. And everyone will be invited to the feast.
What's to stop the banks, Boeing, Raytheon or Bath Iron works from screwing up. We are all car guys and acutely interested in the world through the eyes of buying cars. But, BP definitely screwed up...we take every venture, one step at a time and make a decision.
That’s easy…allow GM and the banks to fail. Then these HUGE corporations will get their act together.
If you lived in Michigan in stead of NH, you just maybe, might see things differently.
I’m from upsate NY where I had relatives who worked at the New Process Gear plant and the Fisher body plant. NPG just closed. Fisher body closed about 20 years ago. A couple nephews of mine worked at Fisher body and relocated to Michigan to continue working for GM.
You think this bailout was bad…wait until the next recession. It’ll be MUCH MUCH worse. I’m not sure our taxes can afford this bailout…I’m POSITIVE we won’t be able to afford the next one.
Dag, you might be right that if I lived in Detroit I’d feel differently. But I don’t.
However, Bush had nothing to do with what happened to GM. GM senior management did. GM was among the largest and most properous manufacturing organizations in the world for generations, and had a global marketplace. They of all people should have been able to weather the recession. But they simply made very bad decisions. And I wholeheartedly agree that it was not the workers or the unions that caused their downfall.
I’m also not “sold” on the extent of the damage that would have been caused. I truely believe that the market size would have remained the same and the void in the supply would have been quickly filled by other producers. As a matter of fact, the divisions would have been sold off to other producers, and would have been reborn as much more productive and well-run organizations. I include in this those divisions that make defense-related product. Chapter 7 does not mean assets disappear, it means they get auctioned to other producers at prices much more refective of their true value. I truely think these damaje estimates are inaccurate and support political agendas far more than they support reality.
I also have much more philosophical basis for having opposed the bailout…I don;t believe that’s a proper use of tax money. I also believe bailouts result in much less healthy marketplaces, and with huge companies much less healthy economies overall.
Let me repeat ( because a great man never repeats himself or has to).
Subsidies and loans are just as much a bailout as ANYOTHER. Federal aid. (please read my reference above).
As a country, we just happen to think that even some poorly run for profit, companies are still capable of making excellent products for our national defense. Ford got it…they were in favor of financial aid to the others as it stabilized their sub contractors. If GM and Chrysler failed, the US controlled auto industry as we know it might cease to exist.
And was Bush-nomics equally complicit ? Yes, you guys are spouting the Rhomney theory that private capital would have bailed them out. There was none available due to the recession ! …GM tried !!!
Sure glad you guys were not pulling the trigger on that one :=) Just being a wise asteroid …with all due respect. It’s really nice to have convictions, but when it gets in the way of our survival, we might want to rethink and be more flexible.
Heck, just to get elected, even the republicans layed claim that the auto loans were their idea…it’s all politics !
Bottom line, we do it daily, have done it, will do it in the future as BOTH sides support it and only lie to assuage the tea baggers. Businesses get bailed out, subsidized, homogenized, gluperized, regulated, deregulated, scrutinized and some times, even left alone.
And no one cares till election time during a recession when done " by so called" big govt.
But, the govt. that keeps sending my SS check or pays my Medicare during that recession is never too big. It’s only too big when it saves a million jobs in the Midwest and I live somewhere else and I think it might interfere with my big govt. bailout that comes every month.
Dag, I agree with your first paragraph. And I think it’s high time we look as other subsidies too.
I don’t consider Medicare, Medicaid, and SS to be subsidies. IMHO they’re earned benefits. We pay into them for our full working lives and should be able to draw on them when they’re due/ Although, as safety nest I do think they should be means-based. I realize these two statements may seem to contradict one anotherm but that’s a long debate so I’ll just say I don;t consider SS, Mediace, or Medicaid as subsidies.
Sorry, but Bush had nothing to do with GM’s problems. If it were an economic problem rather than a businesss management problem, all manufacturere including Toyota and Honda would have suffered the same fate. They did not. GM thoroughly messed up their own company. There’s nobloody else to blame.
Yeah, we know that our government has been engaging in subsidies and bailouts for a very ling time. I contend that it’s time to stop. We know from past debates that we differ in our philosophies on the issues of subsidies and bailouts. It’s good to know that we’re both men of conviction.
Does the world blame the US for the current economic crisis? If the failing economies of Europe blame the American Minotaur for the austerity that is being poured on them what will result? We are fed the TROOTH from the propaganda mill of our choice while much of the world is in turmoil. Oh well. Nothing new there. Ignorance truly is bliss.
According to the economics expert from the UK that I was watching on BBC last evening, they do blame the U.S… His discussions of the impact of the U.S economy on the economies of England, Russia, and the European Union were very convincing. I would caution anyone reading this to realize that this I know this was only one “expert”, and no one source gives a complete and unbiased picture.
As I’ve said many times, someone who disagrees doesn;t generally do so out of ignorance, just because of differences in interpreting the truely endless amounts of data. Two intelligent, equally well educated people with the same goals can interpret data and come to entirely different conclusions, and that is generally where debate begins. Assuming that one’s opponent is just ignorant misses an opportunity to learn something.
I believe that a great many people around the world see the US as a nation of arrogant, self indulgent snobs and I can’t really blame them. The Fed has distilled a river of liquidity to quench the bull’s thirst in recent decades and when the proof of that liquidity is tested the fire might be more than we can handle. The resulting inflationary debacle will be a worse scenario than the current recession and a great many fingers from around the world will be pointing our way. What will China say when we cut our debt to them by 1/2? And who will be the big winners in the US? The wealthy who own equity, of course.
Perhaps. The wealty were considered to be safe with their equity in 1928 too.Then in '29 they discovered much of their equity was way too leveraged.
We’ll see what happens. Many of the alleged wealthy were deeply involved in trading…what are those worthless futures documents called again? Can’t think of the term. Dirivatives! I just remembered.
The Wall Street Crash of 1929 was the major cause of the Great Depression. It was also the result of too much liquidity; (even college kids were playing the stock market) and the resultant bubble caused the crash.
Greenspan should have remembered that, but nevertheless advocated almost identical “easing” , so the rest of the world can rightly point the finger at Greenspan, the two Bushes and Clinton.
Conservative ficscal and monetary policies keep you out of trouble; during the Great Depression 10,000 US banks failed, but only one small Canadian bank. During the last meltdown not a single Canadian financial institution failed, nor did any Swiss banks.The collapse of the Bank of Scotland was a complete surprise to many, since that area has always been financially conservative.
The 90s Asian meltdown was also caused by real estate and other speculation and easy credit, mostly led by Japan. They are still trying to recover from that meltdown.
I should have been more specific, equity in real estate that was bought before or after the bubble would be the safest place for parking wealth.
As I look around my little corner of the world it is apparent that there is a great deal of cash looking for a good place to park and those “millionaires next door” in this area are buying land and building all manner of commercial property while land, labor and material prices are down. You would think the country was in the middle of a BOOM but it’s just smart old people who see that while cash will soon be losing value permanently, land, and commercial property especially, will hold its own, if not gain significantly in the not so long run.
Well thats the problem,the rich run the value of land up and us poor folks cant afford any-Kevin
During the heated days of real estate flipping and 110% loan to value the rich had their money parked in bonds or loaned money to the hot to trot real estate developers. Now that real estate is bottoming out the rich are finding bargains and scarfing them up. Some of the not so wealthy are finding some real bargains, too. But when the Fed’s efforts to levee the rising tide with high interest rates CDs will again be a worthwhile place to park funds. I have a loan payment table published in 1980 with the lowest rate 10%. I bought a house at that time with a bargain rate of 8.5%.
Well lets not generalize too much. Everyone is correct to a point. People also made huge amounts of money during the depression but some would say on the backs of others. If you had land but no money, you lost the land to the ones with money. Every stock that was sold at 1% of its value was bought by someone else. Same today, its silly to keep your assets in cash when you can buy property cheaply instead of earning 1 or 2% , but you also had better have enough cash to ride out the bumps. GM’s problem was they didn’t have the cash and there was no one willing to loan them the cash. Ford looked good because they had borrowed to the hilt the year before. Had they not done that, they would have had the same liquidity problems as GM.
If you are not concerned about US industry in general, just take a look at the “made in” labels of the stuff you’ve been buying. All kinds of reasons but we need to support US manufacturing at this point. I bought a new Toro snowblower with a Briggs engine because I wanted a US made product. After a little research, the engine was made in China and the housing in Mexico instead of Minnesota. My bad, but ten years ago it was all made in the US with the wages paid to others in the US.
Just saying, you may not like unions or GM or management but this is not good for our general population.
@bing. Good points.
The dirty little secret and the built in reason why those with money get richer and those without are subject more to the whims of the economy is this. The more money you have, the better the interest rate or security terms you can negotiate whether you are borrowing, lending or investing. The FDIC backed loans for $100 k and below is only for we poor folks. Ask guys like Romney. They NEVER loose money. Get just a little too greedy, and regardless, you loose your shirt. You can negotiate with banks and money talks, loudly !
Dag, you ever listen to Gerald Celente? he has a good handle on the greed thing and worthless law thing-Kevin