" This whole ‘if somebody make money then I must be losing money’ idea is nuts! "
Absolutely !
What’s with all the animosity and hostility for wealthier Americans ? That won’t solve anything, but get your shorts in a wad. It’s wasted energy and puts up barriers to Americans working together.
It would be better to direct that enegy toward real solutions, things like cutting government waste and over-spending and balancing the budget and cutting deficits and debts.
Face it. The country has a spending problem, not a taxing problem.
. You'll see that anyone earning over $500,000 paid 22.6% or more of their gross income, and 26.3% or more of their taxable income. Both % values are higher than that paid by any lower-income group, as it should be.
That’s the tax rate on their income NOT from stocks. Warren Buffett even admits that 95% of his $47m income comes from Hathaway stocks. His taxes on the stock is 15%. The rest is at the 35%. The IRS just shows what the rates ARE…not what each individual rates are. The tax returns that Mitt Romney submitted showed he was paying a MUCH LOWER RATE then I am. He paid 14% for 2011. So you’re saying he broke the law???
This whole 'if somebody make money then I must be losing money' idea is nuts!
You do know what Hedge Funds are right???
If the stock market goes up, EVERYBODY owning stocks makes money.
@texases
" if the stock market goes up, EVERYONE owning stocks makes money" that’s a pretty narrow minded look at the world economy.
Our stock market has thrived for years at the expense of depressing other economies world wide…YOU ARE INCORrECT.
I guess you weren’t following the the entire soliloquy. The declared income can be much less percentage wise for the wealthy as they have more options for decreasing their taxable income. Their net worth keeps rising at a much higher rate while their taxable income can remain quite stable. They can avoid taxes on a lot of what they make indefinitely just as you or I can. The difference is in their growth rate which is much greater. Just talking about what a person pays for a tax rate for his declared income is only half the story.
And yes…there has been a huge shift in wealth from one group of people to another over the last 10 years. When I say money is seldom made, you 're only looking locally. Wealth has obviously shifted from toward China over time internationally and locally away from the middle class. To say that everyone in a particular exchange does well together is sometimes true. But, the businesses in that exchange do so at the determent of other economies. Your analysis is too short sighted IMO.
Face it. The country has a spending problem, not a taxing problem.
We have BOTH.
But no party wants to sit down and address either as adults. Both parties spend way too much. The last president that our deficit shrunk was under Clinton.
Truman, Ike, Kennedy all reduced the GDP. Nixon and Carter the GDP stayed about the same…Reagan and Bush increased the GDP. Clinton decreased it. Then Bush and Obama increased it again.
@texases
" if the stock market goes up, EVERYONE owning stocks makes money" that’s a pretty narrow minded look at the world economy.
Our stock market has thrived for years at the expense of depressing other economies world wide…When my stocks, in a marginal year won’t even keep up with the cost of living while a larger investor has yields rates greater then mine, then yes, they made money at my expense. They have not been going up for everyone. When stocks were marginal or depressed and the bond market was doing better, guess who gets preferential treatment by brokers in investment changes.
I guess you weren’t following the the entire soliloquy. The declared income can be much less percentage wise for the wealthy as they have more options for decreasing their taxable income. Their net worth keeps rising at a much higher rate while their taxable income can remain quite stable. They can avoid taxes on a lot of what they make indefinitely just as you or I can. The difference is in their growth rate which is much greater. Just talking about what a person pays for a tax rate for his declared income is only half the story.
And yes…there has been a huge shift in wealth from one group of people to another over the last 10 years. When I say money is seldom made, you 're only looking locally. Wealth has obviously shifted from toward China over time internationally and locally away from the middle class. To say that everyone in a particular exchange does well together is sometimes true. But, the businesses in that exchange do so at the determent of other economies. Your analysis is too short sighted IMO.
@MikeInNH - those % are the actual % paid, tax paid over gross or net income. They’re not the tax table rates. Actual $$ to the IRS.
And of course folks can lose money if they go with hedge funds that bet incorrectly on the market direction. But the statement that investments are a ‘zero sum game’, with gains by some at the direct and equal expense of others, is simply wrong.
I’d love to see some actual #s here, not individual examples. I’ve provided plenty.
Some how, you think that when the market is flat or drops, it drops or all investors…that is absolutely wrong.
You get that idea because if the market goes up, it must go up for all investors…wrong again.
"Some how, you think that when the market is flat or drops, it drops or all investors…that is absolutely wrong.
You get that idea because if the market goes up, it must go up for all investors…wrong again. "
Everyone has been programmed to look at the “market” as the indicator of the country’s prosperity. For most the market contradicts their financial situation. When the vast majority’s income is below the mode we cannot look at the mean as an indicator of prosperity.
Sure…you could be right if everyone invested in the same stocks and bonds at exactly the same time. Unfortunately, profits are not only dependent upon the stocks and bonds you hold but also on the timing of any transaction in going from one to another…in different exchanges as well.
A rising tide does not lift all boats, especially the one that’s sinking. A poor investment is a poor investment whether the market is going up or down. @RodKnox sums it well too. Large numbers of small investors can easily suffer at the expense of a few large well managed accounts. Management is as important as just being a stock holder.
So, while the market appears to go up in total, there will always be some who lost because of the shares they hold or the timing of their transactions. And, their lost is a well managed accounts gain. Guess who gets the benefits of better management ?
VDC, you may be correct in that most people don;t understand the “debt ceiling”, but I don’t believe that includes the members of the house & senate. What the repubs are saying is “show us how you’re going to reduce the out of control spending for the future before we appprove your authority to borrow more to pay this hugely increased debt that you’ve accumulated this past few years”.
I think it’s prudent. The problem isn’t the refusal to authorize borrowing more money than the prez’s “credit card limit”, the problem is the prez’s refusal to commit to reducing out of control spending if they do approve. The problem is out of control spending. Time to get to the root of the problem. This prez simply wants authority to borrow as much as he wants as often as he wants with no oversight. Then he’ll leave the mess for his successor to clean up. I’m not saying he’s the first to do this, I’m saying he’s doing this right now and elevating the problem instead of reducing it.
“And, their lost is a well managed accounts gain. Guess who gets the benefits of better management ?”
It’s been repeatedly proven that managed accounts underperform the market, on average. But egos are egos, and folks like to think they have that ‘special’ account. Doesn’t exist.
It would be prudent if they had not already authorized the president to spend the money. It 's like ordering your daughter or son to go buy groceries, not giving them enough money and saying, you can’t charge it either till you pay off the amount already charged…but I want dinner on the table tonight !
The debt that the republicans ran up was never a problem when THEY WERE IN OFFICE . All of a sudden they get morality ? Not likely. Reagon and Bush both ran up debts greater then their predecessor.
The debt the republicans ran up when they were in office was a problem. The continued out-of-control spending that the dems have run up since THEY took office is even MORE of a problem. Obama got elected promising to balance the budget. He’s done the exact opposite.
So let’s call today “time zero”. From here on out, should we give the president unchecked authorization to run up the future debt totally without accountability? Or should we hold him to his campaign pledges of four years ago and at least require that he tell us how he’s going to turn the runaway spending around before the give him “carte blanche”? He’s in charge. His party is in charge of the congress. They heven’t even met their legal requirement to submit a budget. It’s time to hold their feet to the fire. It’s time to stand fast.
Four years ago he blamed Bush and said he’d turn it around. He’s done the opposite. While continuing tyo blame Bush. It’s time for him to stop blaming others. He’s been the president for four years now. Time for him to stand up and start taking responsibility.
@Same
Please look at the debt’s genesis. Inheriting two wars, a recession, mismanaged Medicare D and the bank bailout signed by Bush along with being saddled with a tax cut that only now has been addressed. ALL of the war debt from Bush NEVER appeared on the books as it was past as a budget supplement. Obama correctly put it on the national debt. It was these that CAME due on his watch. Bush left the economy in a shambles.
Pulling out of two wars and replacing lost tax revenue takes time…would there have been this job growth under a Bush third term…Not with Cheney as his VP running things (" the public doesn’t care about deficits") his quote ,guess these guys do now…that they are out of control.
Now, you want to forget how long it took to get out of the great depression…and say. " time zero" it takes much longer to repair a car then to get in the accident !
The Democrats and Republicans act very much like several married couples that I know. Each throws away every cent in cash and available credit for their own personal gratification and at the end of each month they point their fingers at each other to lay blame for being broke. The Democrats throw money at their constituents through entitlements to the poor and near poor while the Republicans throw money to their constituents through tax cuts and Pentagon spending which is, for the most part, gun boat diplomacy for the oil and banking industries.
Rod, you’re right…the poor are hording all that money. Remember that every cent spent on the poor goes back into the economy. Money spent on wars, overseas DOESNOT. And , rebuilding in Iraq costs more with no multiplyer effect for us. That is money lost. That is the big difference between the spending…plus, one saves lives, one takes lives…that must mean something.
Dag, it doesn’t matter what the genesis is. Blame whomever you’d like. The question at hand now is do we set groundrules to prevent the disease from growing, or do we continue business as usual. I want the former choice rather than the latter.