Wanted to get this on both discussion…are there any “tests”/reviews…
awd/fwd incl CU, Canadian driver, car and driver
http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/traction2006.htm
en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/winterdriving/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1408348 - 57k -
Thanks for finding and sharing those reports.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that AWD and 4WD do help get you going and help climbing hills in snow or icy conditions, but offer no advantage when it comes to staying on the road or stopping, in fact AWD and 4WD may contribute to longer stopping distances and less direction control.
In all cases of snow or ice Winter tyres help, but can be less capable on dry or warm roads than all season tyres.AWD is superior in engine braking and cornering control…
If you read ALL the test results by Canadian Driver and Car and Driver, yes. Here are some points that I took from them: AWD is superior in climbing and going from stop, even when fwd has winter tires and awd does not. When both have winter tires, AWD excels in lateral traction during cornering.
According , when engine braking, which happens every time you lift foot off accelerator in slippery conditions, the braking affect is more evenly distributed where in fwd on only one wheel
When both are equipped with the same tires…
Going, cornering control, engine braking control, emergency handling are ALL enhanced by AWD. All cornering tests on packed snow.
Something we who drive them know and at least a couple of publications agree…AWD in winter driving is better. The balanced engine braking of AWD is obvious to me and others.
I use winter tires and have always felt AWD cars are MORE dangerous without because of the excessive speeds they are capable of in slippery conditions. Equally “tired” has always been a given.
Thanks…it’s a fun debate, glad you posted it.
Note…overall ranking as cumulative of all test show AWD cars and trucks superior. Canadian Driver tests
The results
SUVs
Also…“Winter Driving Manifesto”
In low-friction environments, being able to put power to all four wheels can provide up to four times greater traction while acceleration or pulling through a corner over a RWD or FWD car without traction control. To an extent, 4WDs also help in braking due to increased power train drag that allows drivers to moderate their speed without hitting the brakes.
While everyone is giving their opinions on what they think is best, would it be appropriate for me to ask a question about my particular situation?
I have an '05 Subaru Outback Limited. I’ve had it for almost a year and traded in my '97 Outback limited. I loved my first Outback and so far like this one but have had a couple of situations that have me questioning what is going on. My biggest reason for concern is I don’t recall this issue with my '97.
I live in Minnesota and twice this year have had occasion to be driving on a somewhat slick, icy freeway. Certainly I moderated my speed for the conditions but found an unsettling issue appear to be occuring.
Routinely as I drove I felt like the back end was breaking loose slightly to the right. It seemed like it only moved a couple inches and between me and the car itself would correct itself, then the cycle would repeat. Over and over and over. At first I thought it was just the effect of wind pushing the car and causing me to correct it, but as it happened repeatedly, and then happened the 2nd time we were on the road in similar conditions, I began to question what was going on.
While I moderated my speed to where I felt I could pretty much eliminate the issue for the most part, I was getting passed by front wheel drive sedans, vans and semi trucks going 5-10 mph faster than I. I tried to pay attention and they didn’t appear to be struggling with their control like I felt I was.
Again, I wasn’t dealing with large swings of the back end, just small swings and always seemed to be to the right.
On a Subaru forum there were some posters who said their Outbacks had problems breaking lose on ice but since I’ve never had trouble with my '97 I pretty much discounted this. Now I’m starting to think there might be something to it.
I have all-season tires on it. If anyone has any thoughts, fixes or similar experiences I’m all ears.
Thanks
Hi,
Hi,
I am a hockey player and coach for over 35 years, and I have driven in the worst winter weather, always in 2 wheel drive, and I can’t recall ever getting stuck. I do recall alot of fun doing “frozen donuts” in parking lots, though.
We bought a used Subaru Forester AWD for my wife to drive due to the snow here in NY. In the snow storm just before Christmas she rounded a corner to fast, hit a brick planter in front of a neighbor’s house, and totalled them (the car and the planter).
Often, it’s not what you drive, it’s how you drive.
I do miss those rear-wheel drive cars. I now have to do my frozen donuts in reverse gear.
Pitt Cairn
In this last weeks Eastern snow storm I was driving my wife to work on total snow pack road driving the old 95 Dodge Stratus. The car has fairly new BF Goodrich Premier Touring TA all season radials tires made specifically for Costco (AKA inexpensive tires). The car has No ABS or Traction control, and performed marvelously in the snow as I saw a Subaru and a other SUV thingy crashed exchanging insurance info. Then in the rear view mirror I see a Jeep GC loose control and slam into the guard rail. Nothing further to say
Let me agree re ABS. It may be fine if you insist on driving too fast and following too closely on dry or wet roads. Insurance company statistics used to say no, but what do they know? In my experience, ABS is worse than useless on really icy roads. Icy roads are regretably part of living in Vermont.
It is possible, if not easy, to somewhat control the trajectory of a car with four locked wheels sliding over a slippery surface. There is simply no way to know where a vehicle with wheels that are locking and unlocking at their own discretion is going to go. Stability control might solve that … or not.
As for FWD vs RWD. All I can say is that when I drove RWD cars, I used to carry chains and usually had to use them two or three times a Winter. With FWD, I don’t have chains.
Tires do make a difference. We have a fairly long, mildly upsloping driveway. All the cars have all weather radials. My son’s Nissan mostly zips in and out. My wife’s 99 Camry has trouble sometimes, but always makes it on the 2nd or 3rd try. My 2002 Protege is a real challenge. There are two or three days every Winter when I have to move any other cars out to the street for their safety then take half a dozen shots with the Mazda to get to the street.
And driver skills are certainly far and away number one. Slow down and keep moving. What I’ve see a lot is people moving to Vermont and insisting on 4WD or AWD and snow tires. A decade later, they can be seen driving an ordinary sedan with all weather radials. (But my neighbor who has a quite steep driveway does put snow tires on and is slowly switching the fleet to AWD. I don’t blame him. If I had his driveway, I’d do that also)
Quote from Pitt “I do miss those rear-wheel drive cars. I now have to do my frozen donuts in reverse gear”
Pitt, Go to your favorite snow covered lot, drive your FWD car up to about 15mph and simultaneously turn the wheel hard to the left and use the parking brake to lock up the rear end, just as the car starts to rotate release the parking brake and nail the gas. Time it right you will get the car to spin on it axis. Good clean fun!
I still say AWD/4WD is “safer” all things being equal.
AWD at Pikes Peak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-K1B4sTX4o
It is possible, if not easy, to somewhat control the trajectory of a car with four locked wheels sliding over a slippery surface. There is simply no way to know where a vehicle with wheels that are locking and unlocking at their own discretion is going to go.
From my personal experience, you do gain some direction control with ABS and you have zero direction control with locked brakes. That seems to be supported by every controlled test I have ever seen. However while I have never noticed it, the test results I have seen and the experiences of other drivers seem to indicate that ABS increases the stopping distance under some snow (not ice) conditions.
In addition it appears a well trained and practiced driver can do better than ABS. I am not that good and I prefer ABS and I would guess nearly all drivers fall into that same category.I have all-season tires on it.
All season tyres are really three season tyres. Get a set of four winter tyres on it and you will see a real improvement.
We bought a used Subaru Forester AWD for my wife to drive due to the snow here in NY. In the snow storm just before Christmas she rounded a corner to fast, hit a brick planter in front of a neighbor’s house, and totalled them (the car and the planter).
I would guess what you were seeing is overconfidence. Many of those drivers believe that AWF and FWD somehow protects you from sliding sideways or provides better braking. Then they over driver their and the car’s abilities. I don’t blame the cars for that kind of problem.
With a different car that exhibited more problems just getting out of a parking place, the drivers likely are being a little more careful.
I agree with Mr. Meehan.
Once drivers experience the increase in low-speed traction with an AWD or 4WD vehicle, they frequently forget about the laws of physics and then proceed to take corners too fast, tailgate, and drive too fast for conditions.
Another possible factor is the car’s tires. No matter how superior a vehicle’s drive system may be, the final link in the chain of traction is the ability of the tires to sustain traction.
This is not a case of the vehicle being at fault, but rather, a case of the driver and/or the tires not being up to the task of driving on a very slippery surface. How else can you explain the relatively large numbers of Jeeps, Blazers, Explorers etc in ditches each winter as I safely motor past them in my Outback equipped with Michelin X-Ice tires?
I like the list as is because it buts the driver and snow tires at the top. For many years I drove in upstate NY snow belt and northern Michigan in RWD cars with snows on the front and regular tires on the rear. I spun the drive wheels getting going but didn’t get stuck and always got where I needed to go.
FWD improved things in the getting going department but not in changing direction. With snow tires FWD is excellent as long as you don’t go too fast and find the understeer pushing you straight ahead when you turn the wheel.
AWD amd 4WD made it even easier to get going, but steer about the same as FWD. Too much speed and you don’t turn well. The problem with both AWD and 4WD is driver overconfidence. Since it is so easy to start off the driver overestimates the traction and easily exceeds the speed where there is enough traction for the car to change direction when the car steers left or right. With a 2WD car the driver feels some wheel spin and realizes better the limitations on traction.
When I’m driving an AWD or 4WD equipped car (have owned Volvo with AWD and SUV with 4WD) I have to remind myself to keep the speed down. Once ANY vehicle gets out of shape and starts a skid you’d better react fast and right to regain control. In these instances the Anti-Skid systems come in to play and they work. Even these systems can contribute to overconfidence.
Is AWD or 4WD safer? I’d say AWD is safer because it is on all the time and the car makes the decision on which wheels need power. With 4WD the driver has to activate the system with a button or lever. Once engaged AWD is still better on snow covered paved roadways, but the difference is minor compared to other factors like tires and driver attitude.
That’s why I agree with putting the driver skill and attitude at the top of the list.
Just reading this thread now.
I fully agree with the 5 bullets and the order of importance that Joseph Meehan stated in his opening post.
Regardless of where the debate goes on which is safer…AWD or fwd (and I’m in the crowd that feels that AWD is the absolutely safest in going, cornering and yes, engine braking with tests to prove it), I still recall the advice in my first Subaru (96) manual that I owned with AWD.
“Even though this drive system has superior winter performance over 2 wd vehicles, do not drive it anywhere you wouldn’t drive a 2wd car.” (paraphrased)
It takes an extra degree of caution to drive one…once you loose traction in one, you’re usually driving much faster at the time than in a 2 wd car. From that point on, nothing good is going to happen.
But tell me, what do you want…it’s winter time in snow ctry, a storm is due and the wife is pregnant and due any day ? I want an AWD/4wd with snow tires parked and ready in the yard…still. I owe it to the family.
AWD is superior in engine braking and cornering control…
Could you provide a reference and maybe find a way I might be able to find a copy of the report. Remember I live in that space between Canada and Mexico. :-) My library is not likely to have it.