@Bing makes a sensible response. When someone needs to evaluate you for a job, they need some way to figure out if you are the best to hire. Having a degree is a good way to differentiate yourself from the crowd until you have a track record. Going to a school with a record of success is also a good way. Of course, it’s hard to get a track record without getting a job. People without a standard path to success have made it in a number of jobs. Bill Gates doesn’t have a college degree, for instance. It’s just a lot harder.
I think the average income of those with advanced degrees compared with those who don’t speaks for itself.
I would prefer that the bridge I’m crossing be engineered by someone with a degree in engineering-That doesnt mean that people without sheepskins cant do wonderful things-Kevin
I think we might be a little surprised at how much “non engineers” contribute to such projects. Computer science majors have been such an integral part that they work hand in hand. Editing for project plans get in the hands people holding degrees in English grammar. The final project can depend on many with a variety of advanced degrees, even political science. I would hope that bridge we all cross has an equally competent construction crew not just chosen for lowest bid.
Think about it: with the advent of the internet, it's never been easier to educate one's self.
To a point…very small point. The internet will give you access to knowledge…but NOT to education. Education is far more then just memorizing facts. It’s tough to learn critical thinking on your own. It’s a developed skill taught through a specific set of disciplines. Some people have the ability to critical think at an earlier age…but it needs to be nurtured. You don’t get that skill by looking at web-sites. Very few people will actually use the internet educate themselves.
Bing made an excellent point about education. But it’s not just grad-school. I usually hire 1-2 software engineers once a year. Most of the time I’m looking for a senior engineer. That means someone with at least 5 years experience and a BS in Computer Science or equivalent experience. Every once in a while I’ll hire an entry-level engineer. By far the most qualified are ones with a college degree from a decent university… I can’t tell you how many kids I’ve interviewed who were self taught…but lacked some of the basic problem solving skills needed to do the job. I’ve hired guys from MIT, UNH, Harvard…UMass…and a slew of others over the years. I’ve had some extremely bad experience interviewing kids with degrees from colleges like University of Phoenix. Those kids pretty much wasted their money. They tend to dumb down the classes so everyone can pass the class. And it shows.
meanjoe75fan “credentialism run amok”
Indeed, but receiving your college degree by 18 takes much of the ‘heir’ out of the “credentialism” system.
I’m a big advocate of home schooling, private tutoring, and online learning.
"I’ve had some extremely bad experience interviewing kids with degrees from colleges like University of Phoenix. Those kids pretty much wasted their money. They tend to dumb down the classes so everyone can pass the class. And it shows. "
And those kids often have HUGE government-backed loans that they’ll have to default on. Recent article in Dallas about a guy with one of those degrees, couldn’t get a job, so he decided to get an advanced degree. Turned out NONE of the courses would transfer. What a sad waste.
@ Bing, that’s exactly why a certain level of education is and should be necessary. Your BIL’s brilliance was recognized, at least by you, and I’m sure you have no monopoly on his intelligence, but even if he wanted to fight the system, in my kindom he would have to get that advanced engineering degree, even if he decided to place it on the ‘truck wall’.
As for signing off on the bridge thing, there are so many levels of sign-off that much can easily get lost in, and or covered by, redundancy. As implied by others, formal credentials doesn’t necessarily mean lack of knowledge. I have lots of faith in numbers, and systems. So if there is a check and balance accountability system in place and a number of people signing off on that bridge I would AOK with it.
I’m equally ok with firing someone who may have the “highest” and “best” degrees but fail to perform adequately.
More so than numbers and system, I have faith in proven results.
And those kids often have HUGE government-backed loans that they'll have to default on. Recent article in Dallas about a guy with one of those degrees, couldn't get a job, so he decided to get an advanced degree. Turned out NONE of the courses would transfer. What a sad waste.
It’s a shame…But that really has NOTHING to do with the traditional educational system. Only the one For Profit colleges are the really bad ones. I’ve never seen a problem with any State college graduate I interviewed…Obviously Harvard and MIT graduates are excellent.
Mike - exactly right, a large number of the for-profits are the problem. I view them like third-party extended warranties: might some of them be OK? Maybe, but with the overall terrible track record, why take the chance?
The main problem with them is they except EVERYONE. Doesn’t matter how well you did in high-school…or what your SAT scores were. As long as you have the money (or can get a loan)…your accepted.
The more prestigious a school is the more it intimidates would be students and the for profit schools cash in on that situation. We certainly have a class mentality with regard to income, culture, regionalism, etc, and for the great majority who feel they are not part of the “in crowd” the “I’ll do it my way” status offered by Phoenix, et al, gives the appearance of a formal education while the student can attend class in their pajamas, in bed if they choose. They won’t chance being ostracized for not wearing the current fashion vogue or for their lack of charisma but they can get the sheepskin to show their parents and prospective employers. The for profit schools have found that the rush to loan money for education makes for a gold mine. And veterans are being clipped of their GI education benefits for what amounts to BS.
From my observation the greatest benefit from the prestigious schools is the status of the degree which indicates fitting in with successful, outgoing, elite people and the social connections from fraternities. But what do I know. I graduated Magnum cum Lager from the Kollege of Hard Knox.
From my observation the greatest benefit from the prestigious schools is the status of the degree which indicates fitting in with successful, outgoing, elite people and the social connections from fraternities.
There’s a difference. No so much when you compare say a top tier with a second tier school…but when you compare MIT to UNH…there definitely is a difference. Why do you think MIT only wants Top students from High-School?? And I’ve seen some pretty smart kids who go there and were NOT prepared for that level of learning.
I like " Ivy League" but thats not to say you cant get excellent people from less prestigous instititions,it depends on thier motivation and the competence of the instructors.Anyway I think No.21 on my list would getting the Government out of the bedroom,consenting adults should be left alone.No.22 would be more pipelines for petroluem,gases and finished goods-KevinOf course you can get a top education from a lesser institution. You get out what you put into it.
But in general…schools like the Ivy league has a higher standard…expects much more from the their students… Here’s an example. Harvard, MIT and UNH offer a compiler writing class for Computer Science majors. UNH students are required to write a simple parser in their class. The MIT and Harvard students are not only required to write a compiler…but linker and optimizer also. The work load for this class at MIT and Harvard is 2-3 times what the UNH student is required to do. And UNH has a very good computer science program.
No. 23 would be an increasing manufacturing base in the US(They can mandate anything else,so lets mandate something good for the people)-Kevin
Somewhere around No.24 would be no more unmarked police vehicles(for public protection) in my opinion part of a Police Officers job is deterence.Been a few cases around here of vehicles with no credentials(save a flashing light attempting) to pull people over.Seen an Old Toronado have a car pulled over on Rt.42 one time(really, a 30 plus year old car as an unmarked police vehicle?-Kevin
Bing, October 3, I did a term paper on pot some years ago, in Criminal Justice class. Pot became illegal after prohibition was repealed. The liquor lobby spent millions of dollars propagandizing pot as turning people into raging killers to stiff the virtually free competition.
Two major studies, the India Hemp Drug Commission,before1900 and a similar study in NYC by Mayor La Guardia, showed that pure unadulterated marijuana was dramatically less dangerous than alcohol.
Just my 2 cents, but some of my disgust with government policy increased many times over about 20 years ago. That’s when I became a city councilman and while the position itself is small potatos when looking at the big picture, it did give me a glimpse into what was really going on with the taxpayers’ money; much of which involves grants being doled out. Fraud, waste, corruption, stupidity, and repeating the same old month after month was the Order of The Day and I was beating my head on the wall trying to make sure everything was open, honest, and fiscially responsible.
I failed.
Good try OK-Kevin