Hail to the Chief!

General Discussion
721

My company deals with a LOT of other countries…and while yes many of them are spending MILLIONS/BILLIONS of dollars into a country wide solution…There are only a handful of countries that even come CLOSE to our PRIVATE system. Will they pass us…maybe.

I agree about optic cable is a good idea. But to spend HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars in tax money to run it to every home is NOT my idea of good way to spend tax dollars. There are several other wireless technologies on the horizon that have the potential to make fiber optics look like a 1200-baud modem. We then spend FEW MORE BILLIONS to ensure everyone now has this latest technology.

What I DON’T like is the way the companies like Time Warner and Comcast (and others) have exclusive access to towns/states/counties. There is no technical reason what-so-ever that you can’t have more then one provider in your area. Since there is not competition then there is ZERO incentive for these companies keep up with technology.

You are right in that the government should get involved. But not by paying and funding an internet super-highway…but by stopping this monopoly these companies have over towns.

722

Mike
I disagree there are a handful of countries that come close to our service.
There ARE a handful of countries that have locations that are doing BETTER. And soon, many more. We are mid pack in the industrialized nations.
http://www.addmorejuice.com/?p=13646

I thought America was better then that. So instead of up grading our infrastructure we should spend the money on more worthwhile causes ? Single payer healthcare (Medicare for all) Sure. I’m for that too !

Are you holding your breath waiting for the deregulated “for profits” to start competing with each other…like is mandated in So. Korea so their monthly expense is $30 (U.S.) for the highest grade service available anywhere. There are at least 5 countries now that are in line to compete directly with our jobs…while we say…we can’t afford it. 178 billion is a lot, but spread over 5 years and and incorporated into existing budgets so each department pays their fair share, is little or nothing in added tax revenue.

"Since there is not competition then there is ZERO incentive for these companies keep up with technology."
You keep making my point. The Govt. turned the infrastructure over to these companies with the idea that “our” so called free market (which it isn’t after mergers) would cure everything. Guess it didn’t…it’s time for the public non profit sector, like we do with roads and highways to take over. Or maybe we should like the feds to turn the interstate over to companies like Verizon etc. to NOT repair and upgrade your roads while still charging you a toll. That’s what is happening NOW with internet service. That would be great for businesses. (sarcasm)

BTW, it’s NOT run to every home…it’s run to high powered transmitters which from there becomes WiFi. But, with a much broader band. Businesses could get benefit of direct linkage that they would have to help pay for. Remember that everything IS WIRED till it gets to a transmitter. I believe that It’s the width of the band available and the fiber optics instead of wire that make one preferred over another.

723

Having High-speed internet in a country the size of South Korea is EASY…NOT so easy in the US. Take our size difference and then multiply by a factor of 10 and you’re getting close to the cost.

Now if you want the Govt to TAKE over the responsibility of the internet…then multiply that cost by another 100…$178 BILLION??? Wouldn’t ever cover the start-up cost. If we completely turned over the internet to government…AND the government was going to be responsible for advancements and keeping pace with other countries…the that cost will be well over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS…probably closer to 10 TRILLION.

As for highways and roads in this country…I guess you haven’t seen the latest reports of how BAD it is.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20095291/

724

And So Korea has a much smaller economy.

Lest you forget the Internet was a property of the defense department, installed and upgraded for years. All, within the defense budget.

And no, access is not run into every house. It’s WiFi and setting up distribution in cities to start is pretty straight forward. London is doing it, Singapore etc.

The highways were damaged by high volume of heavy traffic never designed for. We get that. What we don’t get is the refusal for the last 12 years to support a program to fund the repair adaquately. No one seems to think that’s important either. A trillion in an unnecessary war was better along with tax cut cuts. If not for that, we would be there.

Now, what is the solution…just let it rot like the highways.

This article estimates the cost at 19 billion…I will look up more estimates.


Regardless, the cost is not finalized.
So, we can’t keep pace with other countries ? We aren’t that great anymore and have to be second rate and wait for Verizon and it’s copper wire to continue charging us 4 times what other ountries pay…I have yet to hear a viable alternative, except…we can’t.

Sounds like our approach to healthcare…our citizens .pay more and get less then any other industrialized country.

725
This article estimates the cost at 19 billion...I will look up more estimates.

The article is then EXTREMELY one-sided then.

Sorry…but this is my field. I’m software manager of a small company in the telecom industry…Trust me…$19B is laughable…No way no how.

The internet now is well over 1 MILLION times bigger then it was 20 years ago. And in 10 years it’ll be 1000 times what it is now. The GOVERNMENT is NOT the place to be running it. Regulating it to a degree…yes…but running…nope…

Internet technology is NOT just the wires and routers and wi-fi…but the technology behind it. So should the government take over the chip technology too??? More then 40% of microsoft software is geared toward the internet…Should the Government take over Microsoft also??..Intel??..Cisco???

726

So, I still wait for a solution. Are we waiting for the Verizon’s of the world to step up, just like the corporations of the US have stepped up to fix the highways they damage ? The ones I hear you vociferously complain about. Who will do it? Or is the rest of the world is too big and too well educated and to advanced now for the US to compete. Sit back and wait, wait for the free enterprise system to do anything on their own but maximize their profits from one year to the next…,yawn.
So, the govt. can’t manage a sector of the Internet, they developed, but they can manage security for three hundred million people…how does that work ? The govt. manages a military, far advanced in complexity then one of it’s major components, which by the way is the Internet.

727

Would you REALLY want the gov’t to be our internet provider? I’m sure the RIAA and MPAA would love that

728

Yes Mike its a shame that some" animals are more equal then others" as far as anti-trust things go,you cant have have competition if the other players dont have a chance to field.Our local very small telecommuncation provider,is really doing a swell job of it,upgrading to fiber on the Trunk lines and at least finally providing DSL to our remote low density situation,they are to be commemded for thier loyalty and persistence,they are finally branching out to more urban areas that are adjactent and actually providing a sort of Wi-Fi internet(well broadcast anyway) to consumers in neighboring towns,not bad for a cooperative which started in the 1960’s and even now they are more service oriented then pure profit,I guess Christian owners help this some,because they believe in the final bottom line.Needless to say thier services may be a bit priceier but I’ll stick with them and continue to support them.
Mega companies sometimes lose sight of the ones" that brung em’ " but the local guy might never try to wrong you,ethics count.
Yes play fair ,level the playing field-nix the monopolies-Kevin

729

My ISP is Comcast/Xfinity and I am clueless how it compares to other services other than the old AT&T dial up which was S-L-O-O-O-O-W. Is wireless faster than cable?

730
Is wireless faster than cable?

The problem with cable…is that the more people on your street who get on…the SLOWER cable internet gets. Wireless doesn’t have that problem… But cable right now has the potential to be a LOT faster then wireless.

Are we waiting for the Verizon's of the world to step up, just like the corporations of the US have stepped up to fix the highways they damage ? The ones I hear you vociferously complain about. Who will do it? Or is the rest of the world is too big and too well educated and to advanced now for the US to compete.

If you actually followed the technology…you’ll see that the technology is changing very very quickly. Sometimes too quickly. And while countries like Japan may have a WIDER use of internet technology…that doesn’t mean the are better innovators in the field. In fact they are 3rd or 4th behind the US. The US is still leading the world in telecom/internet technology. Let the Government take over…and we’ll drop like a stone.

So, the govt. can't manage a sector of the Internet, they developed, but they can manage security for three hundred million people...how does that work ?

Yes they can’t…First off they didn’t develop it…

Robert Taylor one of the Pioneers of the internet…went to work for Dec’s Palo Alto research center. Along with Dec and Xerox actually put the internet into practice. While the government DARPA commissioned it…they DIDN’T invent it. And that’s about the extent of Governments involvement.

731

@Mike
As you know, surely better then I as I have only worked with the Federal govt. in law enforcement and with the EPA; but, the Feds are not all comprised of the dumbest people while the private sector has the smartest. If , in the case of the auto industry they are required to manage a private sector enterprise, they do it reluctantly. But, IMO, they did it well. My experience with them has been this: they do not pretend to have all the answers in these endeavors but in working with the EPA for example, the federal govt. seems to have two things other endities DONOT have: authority and access to resources. Their resources in the case of the auto industry were proven succesful auto management persons.

If for example , they had to manage a sector of the Internet like they do with with any other complex enterprise, you can bet boards would be set up to include best minds in the country in that area. There would be no shortage of talent. Like wise, the motivation would not be for profit but as a trust with the public good at heart. Non public sector supporters don’t all see it that way as profit is their primary goal. I hear it in your arguements. Like those who argue agaisnt health care are totally silent about those who die without it, can only talk about financial loss they believe will occur and how, we can’t afford that either while selectively avoiding personal suffering.

And no, the govt. never invents or builds anything, yet the major innovations and large commitments whether it be the irradication of diseases, curbing polution caused by corporate greed or protecting individual rights; no corporation dedicated to a profit margin leads as well as a democratically elected govt. working with the will of the people in mind.

By your own example, you indicate that the best people would be involved to rebuild, manage and help the govt. develope it. Again, thank you for making that,point. The govt. provided the Initiative to " commissioned it, put the talent in place, PAY for it " with our tax dollars and succeed for the public good. They DELOPED it. We would still be waiting for Internet service in general without a govt. defense need for the public good.

Fortunately, IMO, our debate is mute. I believe it WILL happen and the best minds in the country will spearhead it.

Btw, develope “means to adopt or acquire something” the govt. certainly didn’t invent the Internet but they did develope it ! They adopted what was given to them and acquired it for the defense dept. use…They are the only ones who could. I never said they invented it though these people did the work for the govt.

732
There would be no shortage of talent.

Sure there would…Because there would be NOT incentive. I’ve spent over a decade working on various government projects. Technology is NOT one of their strong suits. The need for the internet was NOT because the Government thought it was necessary…but because the scientists doing work for the government saw a need for it.

Several projects I’ve worked on the government not only was behind in technology…but they actually stifled new technology. We were FORCED by them to keep using an old outdated system that almost doubled our development time…WHY?? Because that’s what they were use. They are very conservative and not very well adept to change.

The internet is probably less then 1% of what it was just 10 years ago. The technology has changed that fast. The tax payers are NOT going to be funding new and better projects year after year. Yet the private sector does it every day. Our company was founded about 10 years ago by a couple of MIT grads. They got private funding and we’ve flourished ever since. Under a government controlled system…we’d never exist…our technology might never exist.

In short…the government works too slow to keep pace with technology. They are great (at least they use to be) at building roads and bridges…but they just get in the way of technology.

Case in point…The Shuttle program. When it was built it was a technological marvel. But it never keep pace with technology (which the internet would have to…to make it viable even 1 year after it was launched). The computers used in the Shuttle are less sophisticated then the laptop I’m typing on. The CONSTANT change in technology is what they have a problem with. If the Shuttle kept pace with Technology…then the computers in the Shuttle would be something close to a super-computer.

733

Please @Mike, keep this conversation in mind when it happens !
I have a friend who worked for Raytheon. He worked for 30 year on one project. The technology in missle defense was constantly updated . Of course, being a Libertarean, I don’t know if I can believe him. He did have a vested interest in all tax dollars going for defense and paying for his retirement and healthcare.

I can understand their unwillingness to constantly retrain, I had to deal with it when I was in. But, I believe it a different situation. I will take a light watered down beer when it happens.

It’s got to be tough reconciling that we live in the greatest country in the world, managed by govt. made up of the most incompetent and dumbest people around where only the brightest are in the private sector. How does that work ?

When left to the profiteers without govt. oversight necessary, this is what happens.

734

“force politicians into Obama Care”

I believe that was the intent…we are suppose to have a similar plan for healthcare eventually as those in office.

735
When left to the profiteers without govt. oversight necessary, this is what happens.

I NEVER said…NO OVERSIGHT…In fact I said…we would have oversight.

It's got to be tough reconciling that we live in the greatest country in the world, managed by govt. made up of the most incompetent and dumbest people around where only the brightest are in the private sector. How does that work ?

Because it’s NOT the government that makes it great…It’s the people.

I have a friend who worked for Raytheon. He worked for 30 year on one project. The technology in missle defense was constantly updated .

No it wasn’t…I’ve worked for Raytheon as a consultant many years ago. At the time they were looking to upgrade the Patriot Missile. It was deemed TOO costly to upgrade the computer because they’d have to rewrite ALL the software and retrofit ALL the missiles.

Governments attitude in technology is…if it’s WORKING…leave it alone. Not the kind of attitude you want running a high-tech business.

736

The Shuttle was a Boondoggle from day one,the program wasnt allowed to die,budget cuts turned it into something extremely dangerous from something with promise. It seems the “Challenger " crew was still alive when they hit the water and how unecessary was the " Columbia” disaster.One thing the shuttle program did was basiclly take us out of the space business(William Proxmire helped too)[ you have to wonder about how powerful the Utah lobby is] till we get the technology of these wonderful things that fly through the air in defiance of physics as we know it our space efforts are going to be mighty feeble.Besides I cannot see space travel ever becoming as routine as “star trek” or “star wars” till we change the man into something that can live in hard vacuum and stand massive amounts of radiation-Kevin

737
It's got to be tough reconciling that we live in the greatest country in the world, managed by govt. made up of the most incompetent and dumbest people around where only the brightest are in the private sector. How does that work ?

I’m going to re-answer this??? It’s NOT that there aren’t intelligent people working in the govt sector…the problem is the BUREAUCRACY.

738

Let’s see, articles from 2010, 2011, 2012, relating to upgrades in the Patriot missle system.I I guess Raytheon is collecting money and faking the upgrades including new software. Some one better tell the govt. all the waste and fraud going on. As I said, my friend worked on the Patriot for many, many years preparing changes and upgrades after the initial deployment way back in the 1980s… Were they all put into effect continuously, ? NO. But Raytheon never stopped preparing and updating them.

http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2019

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/26/idUS150288+26-Apr-2011+PRN20110426

After scanning other articles, it appears the missle radar system was changed between 2003 and 2005. The missle was adapted to operate with some of our allies which, I would assume may or may not require some changes in software. This is just in the last 15 years. I’m going to go out on a limb and say,At the least Raytheon had to be involved in all of these endeavors.

739

Just because it’s an UPGRADE doesn’t mean it’s keeping up with technology. There’s a HUGE difference. I’ve seen MANY upgrades that were nothing more then band aids to an existing system…or they finally HAD to upgrade when the hardware got so obsolete it wasn’t useful anymore. The Patriot missile was first introduces in the late 70’s. So yea…I can understand a possible major upgrade some 30+ years later. I hope you don’t hold that as the prime example of the Government keeping up with Technology!!!

Our company is only 10 years old. We’ve made 4 MAJOR upgrades since inception. By the same scale…the Patriot Missile is about 15 upgrades behind.

740

Did I ever say that the Govt. was on the cutting edge ? Even medicine needs assimilation, trials and training to encorporate the latest in technology…that goes without saying. The single biggest consumer does move like a battleship trying to turn or stop.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2011-09-27/commentary/30769147_1_big-government-property-rights-liberals/2

They can do things right…and rather quickly. Note number 7 though invent is a stretch to say.

I know of NO other institution private or otherwise that has saved as many lives, domestically. I know of no other entity that has caused as much suffer and death domestically as the free enterprise system. Probably the opposite is true abroad as far as our govt, is concerned…but they get a few things right…l