GM or NOT?

Recalls are not a concern for me. A better indicator of chronic and multiple problems might be perusing a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) list as that will have a lot of those mundane, day to day issues that never show up as a Recall.

Many TSBs are irrelevant to the consumer but you can go to a site like ALLDATA and peruse TSB titles for free although content is hidden without a subscription. The wheat can be separated from the chaff as to what’s relevant and what’s not.
The TSB list on the Impala is pretty lengthy so try not to be overly horrified… :slight_smile:

The Impala seems to be a decent car. Several neighbors around here have owned them for a while with no problems to speak of.
There is a poster on this forum (Marnet) who bought a new 2007 Impala and seemed to have a lot of grief from the get-go with that particular car. She recently got rid of it and bought a Camry.

ford?

Gerald?

dead

I would not hesitate to by a GM product if it fit my needs. I owned a 2006 Chevrolet Uplander that I sold to our son who needed a better vehicle. I had no problems in the 57,000 miles I owned the vehicle and it now has gone over 125,000 with no problems. I would have purchased another GM minivan, but GM dropped the minivan line. I don’t remember any recalls. I replaced the Uplander with a 2011 Toyota Sienna. I did receive a notice that the Sienna is being recalled because the spare tire may drop out and I will be notified when the parts are available.
In some ways, the Uplander was cheaper to run than the Sienna. The Goodyear tires that came on the Uplander were still good at 50,000 miles whereas the Firestone that came on the Sienna were worn out at 35,000 miles. The battery in the Uplander was going strong after 5 years and 65,000 miles, but I had to replace the battery in the Sienna after 3 years because it was outgassing and corroding the cables.
I buy a vehicle that fits my needs regardless of the make. I owned an Aerostar and a Windstar at one time. I liked the Uplander the best because it was narrower than the other minivans. I often had to back into a narrow alley off a busy street. On the other hand, the wider minivan may be more appealing and fit the needs better for another motorist.
Consumer Reports gave low marks to the Uplander and it has a worse than average repair record. On the other hand, the Sienna received high marks and has an above average repair record.

Yes, I was disappointed in the number and type of major and minor problems with the 2007 Impala including two electronic issues that each required 3x fixes to stay fixed by only 3,000 miles. Reliability was downhill from there until I traded it at a mere 7 years with 54,000 miles which, in my book, should have been merely well broken in rather than a repair money pit. Despite that, it was a pleasant car to drive; frankly more comfortable and pleasurable than the 2014.5 Camry I bought 6 months ago. On the other hand, my brother owns an Impala (2005?) which has given good service without the array of headaches I had with mine.

I was tempted to get another 6 cylinder Impala as the new one is darned nice except for too small a rear window. But I narrowed down my choice, making some compromises and trade offs in choice, to the 4 cylinder Camry based on several factors:

  • Budget: anything priced beyond what I was willing to pay to buy, maintain, insure, and pay the taxes on I didn’t even test drive with just a few very tempting exceptions.

  • Reliability ratings not just for the current year model but looking at the pattern of reliability going back at least five to ten years. Consumer Reports is a very good source for looking at historic reliability ratings by each year although with some time and digging there are additional sources on the internet worth looking at for additional points of view.

  • I kept an open mind about test driving AWD, both the full time and selectable, about CVT transmissions, turbo engines, compact cars, mid-sized, sedans, hatchbacks, SUVS, wagons, and so forth. I literally thought outside the box in terms of the box on wheels a car is and truly experimented with and tried out vehicle variations I’ve never seriously considered before. I made a point of looking at how I have always used a car, in what ways that has changed over 40 years, and being realistic about what my needs and limitations both physical and financial are apt to be in the future.

  • The track record with GM vehicles my family has had. Despite finding GM cars comfortable to drive, my parents’ 1983 Olds, my 1987 Olds, and my 2007 Chevy all suffered from multiple problems even when new and often required having the same problems repaired over and over and over again. As a matter of personal safety, I decided to try a car make with better average reliability.

  • I ended up avoiding any vehicle choices that were first year redesigns or known last year of a model being retired from the maker’s line up. Although I didn’t mind the way some CVT transmissions performed I chose to stay with a traditional transmission in a make/model with a good track record as being less expensive to repair if that happens. I chose to avoid turbo engines for now as many of them are new to the cars in my price range and having problems with the computer programming for those turbos. That said, I still almost bought a Honda Accord, despite a first year’s CVT transmission and first year’s redesign of the engine, because it had such superior suspension, acceleration, handling and steering compared to other cars I tested. The deal breaker on the Accord were the miserably uncomfortable seats and that several of them I looked at all had some rather sloppy welds and big gaps between body panels compared to other cars.

Keep in mind that some GM models have non-hybrid start-stop engines introduced only 2 or 3 years ago. GM is already retiring that engine and replacing it with a more traditional engine in several of those models (Chevy Malibu and Buick LaCrosse) due to both lackluster sales and high rate of problems. So you might do well to avoid that specific engine and make certain you have a different one if you do decide you want a GM vehicle.

Bottom line, I personally do not advise against a GM car but I’d suggest you think about how long past warranty you expect to drive whatever car you buy, how often you are willing to spend time at the shop for more than standard maintenance, and how important overall reliability is for whomever in your family will be driving the car. Since car fleets such as rental and government agencies so heavily use GM cars, they can’t necessarily be a bad choice. But you will most likely experience more problems requiring more time consuming repairs than with some other make/model choices and you most assuredly will experience a much higher rate of depreciation which is an important factor to consider unless you plan/expect to drive the car for many years. Currently, most GM vehicles have a much higher percentage rate of depreciation in the first three years than almost any other make. (Although one other very popular car, the Honda Civic, has a significantly high depreciation rate in just the first year which suggests to me that many people decide quickly that it is too small or otherwise not what they thought it would be and trade it after only about 1 year.)

Now, all this lengthy diabtribe aside, I am NOT mechanically knowledgable. Most of what little I know I have learned over the past dozen years reading here on the forum and asking an endless array of questions of those who are mechanical experts. So pay attention to all the replies to your question and note the several trends which answers fall into, both pro and con for GM. There is a lot of valuable information in the collective wisdom here. The final answer of what is best for you will depend on which risk factors matter the most for you, how you will use the car, how long you plan to drive it, etc.

Good luck and happy car hunting!

Marnet
…still reading, still learning…

I noticed the other day there’s a new Consumer Reports publication at the bookstore which lists – car by car – the common unscheduled repair problems people who own cars have complained about, problems which were caused by the car manufacture’s design problems. Often recalls were involved, but not always. For example this publication calls out the head bolt problem in the 4 cylinder Camry on certain model years. That kind of summary information seems like it would be useful when deciding on a car buying selection.

Find it at the bookstore then find it at the public library.

@GeorgeSanJose‌

Speaking of those head bolts . . .

It’s not just the Camry . . . far from it

it’s every Toyota product model years 2002-2006 which used the 2AZ-FE engine

I have known lots of people over the years who bought cars that were less reliable and still “thought they were”. When you get down to the nitty gritty in talking with them, they thought yearly repairs of items like heater cores, radiators, alternators along with trim items falling off and levers breaking was "normal " in all cars. In their mind, they had reliable cars. One guy I talked to just thought some repair problems were a normal maintenance items.

Then, one good friend of mine had nothing but Camrys for years and got board with them. Thinking that all cars were just as reliable, he bought a GM for less money with better style and features which gave him nothing but problems. That didn’t last wrong.

Rental car fleets are full of lousy cars they’ve been able to buy at huge discounts. They count on it. Since they typically keep cars for about three years they don’t have to deal with a lot of long-term reliability problems. Even bad designs usually survive three or four years without needing very expensive repairs (major engine work, new transmission, etc.)

Dag, my thinking in the early '70s was exactly the same as that of the people you referred to. Then I bought my first Toyota. My thinking changed dramatically.

One has to wonder how much the unions play into these problems. A few stories about factory workers going out on their lunch break and getting high and/or drunk, then going right back to work. They won’t get fired, so nothing really changes, and they continue the cycle over and over again.

Then there’s non union jobs where, if you screw something up, you could be looking for a new job, no matter how good of a worker you were.

“One has to wonder how much the unions play into these problems”

Are the mechanics in a new car dealership actually members of a union?
I think that we are all aware of the damage that the UAW did to the US auto industry, but…can we conflate this to include dealership mechanics on the local level?

I was not aware of union affiliations for mechanics, so I would be interested in somebody enlightening me on this situation.

“Are the mechanics in a new car dealership actually members of a union?”

In the vast majority of cases, the answer is a resounding NO

I heard that a Mercedes-Benz shop new car dealer in San Francisco is unionized

Here in the Los Angeles area, I think there are no unionized new car dealers

Several years ago, I heard that some of the Beverly Hills Benz dealer employees were striking, because they wanted to join a union. I don’t know what ever happened there, because I was working at another dealer.

It is common practice for new employees at new car dealers to sign “a little black book” on their first day.
They are told to sign it or “don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”

The book essentially signs away all your rights. No right to sue, only litigation, which always favors the dealer. No right to join a union. Even mentioning a union is forbidden. Your employer has the right to terminate you at any time, without stating a reason. Yet you are expected to give 2 weeks notice, if you quit . . .

That said, I don’t know what the situation is with used car dealers. I assume it’s much the same

Thanks, db4690, for that clarification.
It is amazing to me how often people express fears of something that turns out to be non-existent…or at least extremely rare.

@VDCdriver‌

Let me answer a question that was not asked . . .

When I was working at the dealer, I would have appreciated if I we were allowed to belong to a union

The dealer certainly didn’t “have my back”

Nobody did

I once got hurt, required several stitches, and wasn’t allowed to work for 2 weeks. I begged them to clear me, but they wouldn’t, out of liability reasons. After that, I vowed to NEVER tell them if got hurt again, for fear of forgoing a paycheck

2 weeks without pay was a major financial hardship, at that point in my life. I never got workman’s comp or anything.

I see that scar every day, and I’m constantly reminded of how the dealer shafted me

No matter how careful you are, at some point you will get hurt. It’s how your employer handles it that matters. His actions . . . or inactions . . . will show his true colors

Um, that little black book would be illegal and unenforcable. There are federally guarnteed rights of workers to vote for or against union representation. Its not up to the employer. We’ve covered all this ground before. I’ve worked in union plants and non union plants and truly the only difference was having an organized way to air grievences and bargain. The world wide can plant required that the employees establish a local union.

Of course a good many auto workers in the past came to have a socialized view of the world in that by forcing wages and benefits, the companies could just take it out of petty cash and no harm no foul, life goes on. Then foreign competition hit and there was a brick wall with limited ability to compete and stay profitable. The unions were just doing what unions do and that is promote increased wages and benefits. Now that a good many of the unions have been neutralized, you have to ask yourself if this was good for the country or not? Think of all the blather about people working for minimum wage. Maybe union representation for them would be a good thing instead of just raising the minimum wage to a non-competitive level like in Seattle.

It’s the same all over; the mechanic is an expendable cog in the machine. I worked (very briefly) for an independent used car dealer and shop owner and the BS was eyebrow deep as I discovered the first week there.

As to unions at car dealers, I don’t see that happening in my lifetime. A dealer would close the doors, fire everyone, and reopen the next week under a new incorporation before treating their help like human beings.

I have known lots of people over the years who bought cars that were less reliable and still "thought they were".

That’s my sister-in-law’s husband. He would swear by Fords. Bought them for years…and had nothing but problems…he just assumed that ALL vehicles had problems like that. After many problems and THOUSANDS of dollars with their last Taurus…my sister-in-law bought a Corolla. After 3 years and NO PROBLEMS WHAT-SO-EVER…He bought a Toyota pickup…never regretted the decision.