I have an ongoing gearbox related problem for which I would be very grateful for any advice. I have paid over £350 and still have a broken gearbox, with neither party accepting responsibility.
Over 5 weeks ago now I paid a mechanic to fit a used Renault Clio gearbox I bought from Renparts. It was the second one they sent out, as the first was damaged. So, as it turned out, was the second. However, the mechanic insists that it was impossible to tell the second was damaged and says the labour costs should be recovered from the supplier, saying rhetorically “who else but a gearbox specialist would be able to tell which gears were working or not, other than reverse, 1st or 2nd”
The supplier, however, says he should have been able to tell it was damaged, and therefore won’t pay the labour costs. Neither of them look willing to budge.
The gearbox, now fitted, only goes into reverse, 1st and 2nd gears, with 3rd, 4th and 5th not engaging.
It looks like I’m taking somebody to court over this, but the question of who is dependent on the answer to this one: Should the mechanic have been able to determine that the gearbox has no working 3rd, 4th and 5th gears prior to fitting it?
I now have 3 gearboxes- the second sent out by supplier is fitted in the car, and the first one they sent out with a damaged driveshaft housing and my original, broken one are being stored in my car boot. I have had a look myself to see if it is easy to determine that they go into gear, but I can only feel they both going into reverse, 1st and second. This doesn’t tell me much, however, as both are known to be damaged. I am now down £350 with no gains, 5 weeks of having no car and the prospect of having to scrap my car because I can’t afford any repairs. That would get me about £500 less that it’s value if it was repaired.
I am assuming that you reside in The UK, and I don’t think that too many of us on this US-based board are very familiar with laws in your country. However, before you go to court, I suggest that you contact whatever governmental consumer protection agency might exist in your area.
In the US, consumer protection agencies can frequently “convince” businesses to do the right thing, and–if they can’t–then they have the ability to bring suit on your behalf through the courts.
Do things work the same way in The UK?
I have no clue about the answer to that question, but I think that it is something worthwhile for you to explore.
I don’t really expect the mechanic to know if a used gearbox is functional until it is installed and should not be expected to work for free. You should try to find a gearbox rebuilder and have them do all the work.
I am not being familiar with Renault Clio gearboxes in particular but am generally familiar with FWD gearboxes. Both the supplier AND the mechanic should have been able to determine if 4th and 5th gears were faulty in the manner you describe. You can shift the box through the gears on the bench and turn the clutch shaft by hand and determine if the output shafts also turn properly. They wouldn’t be able to determine bearing noises or bad synchronizers but that is not the problem.
Get them both on a 3-way conference call and threaten them BOTH with legal action, report to consumer protection, tell their mothers, call the local news channel, or give them bad internet ratings. Anything in your power to upset their businesses if they don’t come up with a solution that gets your car fixed. Don’t yell, just make it very clear you will make life exceptionally difficult for them until THEY come up with a solution that fixes your car.
As far as I’m concerned any issues with this gearbox are between you and the person who sold the used gearbox. It’s not always possible to tell if a used unit is good or will even remain good for one second after installation.
A mechanic should always be clear with a customer that any warranty is up the minute the installation is finished unless there’s a fault due to the actual installation itself.
Seeing as how the symptoms are the same (and I’m not familiar with the Clio shift linkage or gearboxes) is it possible there’s a linkage issue?
A bench inspection of a manual transmission is not always an indicator of whether the unit is good or will remain good for more than mere seconds. I’ve bench shifted some that seemed to be ok on the surface but once installed would not operate correctly.
One of them was a 15k miles Subaru transmission that felt great on the bench. It locked up a minute after up and running. Teardown revealed bent shift rails inside the transmission; likely due to the collision that caused the almost new car to become a parts donor at the salvage yard.
The car being repaired was a bank repossession that I had argued tooth and nail against in regards to the installation of a used transmission. The repairs ended up costing the bank more than a new unit from Subaru would have cost; with the latter being my original recommendation.
However, the mechanic insists that it was impossible to tell the second was damaged and says the labour costs should be recovered from the supplier, saying rhetorically "who else but a gearbox specialist would be able to tell which gears were working or not, other than reverse, 1st or 2nd"
The supplier, however, says he should have been able to tell it was damaged, and therefore won’t pay the labour costs. Neither of them look willing to budge.
…
If the supplier insists that it is so simple to tell if that gear box worked or not…why wasit not tested by them before they sent it to the mechanic.
Unless you can convince the supplier that they should cover the replacement part and labor…I think you are going to have to pay again.
I have no idea what kind of laws or regulations govern transactions like this in your country. But here in the US, I know what I would do as an auto shop. I would request payment from you for the second transmission installation and then ask that you find another shop with which to do business.
As a rule I will not install parts supplied by the customer. They either buy the parts and labor from me as a package with me providing warranty on said repair or we don’t do business. Now of course there are exceptions, and I have installed transmissions that were delivered to me by the customer. But with the complete and clear understanding that I offer no warranty or guarantee of any kind on any part of the work. And, I asked to be paid in advance, that way if there is any problem with the part I will not be out my labor money. Period.
Look at it this way…if you come in with a headlamp and ask me to install it, and it turns out to be defective, you wouldn’t ask me to install another one free of charge, would you? I would charge you just as much as I did for installing the first one.
When you provide your own parts to a shop, it is incumbent upon you to provide the parts in serviceable, “ready-to-install” condition.
In the US, consumer protection agencies can frequently “convince” businesses to do the right thing, and–if they can’t–then they have the ability to bring suit on your behalf through the courts.
Get them both on a 3-way conference call and threaten them BOTH with legal action, report to consumer protection, tell their mothers, call the local news channel, or give them bad internet ratings. Anything in your power to upset their businesses if they don’t come up with a solution that gets your car fixed.
I don’t know that anyone did anything wrong here and is liable for anything. We’re dealing with used parts.
I suppose the gearbox supplier has some kind of warranty, likely summarized by “if the part we sell you does not work we will give another until you get one that does.” Their warranty is likely stated to be limited to the parts sold and does not cover labor or incidentals.
Unless the shop dropped the transmission during installation or otherwise damaged it, they didn’t do anything wrong either. Gearboxman walked in and said “please install this transmission” and the shop did. I doubt Gearboxman asked them to perform RDI–remove, disassemble, and inspect–to verify the functionality of the transmission.
The way I see it, the supplier owes Gearboxman another transmission until they find one that works. And Gearboxman owes the auto shop the money to keep replacing them.
The only variable, as was noted above, is to make sure the shifter mechanism in the car is working properly.
I missed the OP’s comment about bringing the gearbox to the mechanic to be installed. I was under the impression the mechanic got the used gearbox for the customer. Yeah, I think the OP is going to have to eat this if he can’t get the supplier of the used gearbox to pay up for the labor. The mechanic just did what the OP asked, no warranty expressed or implied. Sorry. I still think a 3-way call might help the situation but the OP’s leverage is much less.
“I was under the impression the mechanic got the used gearbox for the customer.”
Same here…
Now that the facts are a bit clearer to me, I don’t think that the mechanic bears any responsibility in this situation. However, the OP should use whatever legal means are at his disposal to “go after” the company that supplied two defective (albeit “used”) transmissions.
Normally I would not try and shift gears on a manual trans that is not installed in car. I would be somewhat concerned about worn synchros which basically cannot be checked prior to installation. IF you can reach shifter linkage on trans, you might be able to disconnect and manually try and shift into 3-4. It could be a shifter linkage issue. With motor off, try and shift into 3rd.
Think of it this way. With all that weight in the boot, there’s no need for the higher gears anyway! … lol … ok, couldn’t resist.
I have no idea who’s responsible. What about this? See if you can get 1/3 of the help you need from the gearbox supplier, 1/3 from the mechanic, and you pony up 1/3 yourself. Beats going to court.
Personally I think the supplier is on the hook for the transmission but not the installation. The OP is going to have to keep paying for installation until he gets a good one. Sometimes we try to save money and it just ends up that we would have been better off with a new or rebuilt part right off the bat. Once we start to sink in the sand though, its tough to extricate yourself cheaply. I don’t think the installer has a dog in this fight but I think I’d plain send all three back to the transmission place and go somewhere else.
There is one thing that frequently happens when a salvage yard unit is installed in a vehicle per customer request.
The salvage yard always “guarantees whatever to be good” and offers the money back or another unit if it turns out the first unit is no good.
Many people assume this means the mechanic who is doing the work is part of that guarantee and they could not be more wrong. Even stranger, customers who are told up front by the mechanic they guarantee only the installation and not the part itself sometimes end up disgruntled at the mechanic after legitimately or deliberately forgetting what they were told about who guarantees what.
I’ve been involved in several disagreements over situations that I mentioned in the second paragraph and it’s extremely frustrating dealing with someone’s amnesia…
One regular customer has a daughter who blew a head gasket in her Mazda. Her dad insisted on another engine that was “guaranteed good” by Ole Rxxxx’s Salvage. I debated the honesty of Ole Rxxxx with him for 10 minutes and he insisted that Old Rxxxx swore on a stack of Bibles the engine was in excellent shape.
I had the guy sign a disclaimer and installed the engine after it was delivered.
Total junk. Breached head gasket on one cylinder, piston rings shot and smoking like a freight train, rod bearings knocking, etc
So who does the dad get upset with? Me; not Ole Rxxxx…
Eventually dad settled down and apologized to me but still… (sigh)
Thanks for your comments.
I’ve decided to get the supplier to provide another gearbox and pay the mechanic to fit it. If they refuse, I have UK Law on my side. They guarantee all parts are cleaned, inspected and tested. the mechanic made no such guarantee, and it’s not his responsibility to guarantee the part works, just to fit it.
I’ve told given them an ultimatum to either pay up or face court, with 3 other mechanics saying they’re willing to write a letter of professional opinion supporting my claim that the supplier is at fault, not the mechanic who fitted their faulty product.
No, we don’t. Nobody does. Look out your window at the first car driving by. Would you offer a guarantee that the transmission in that car works properly and will work properly for the next 12 months/12,000 miles? Neither would I. Yet when people buy a part from a salvage yard they have some expectation that it will be just fine.
If you want a warranty and reliability, buy new or quality rebuilt. Used parts are just that, used. To guarantee them is foolhardy for both the buyer and the seller.
... with 3 other mechanics saying they're willing to write a letter of professional opinion supporting my claim that the supplier is at fault, not the mechanic...
Like my old law professor used to say when talking about crazy laws, “there has never been a law that someone somewhere didn’t want”. I’m sure if we asked the 300 million people what they’d like to see, we’d get some more doozies.
