Garage floor of wood - building permit problem

Be sure a plastic barrier is put down first when they pour concrete. This is seldom done in garages, but it will keep the concrete dry. Interesting that the wooden boat people think concrete is too dry for storing wooden boats. I was just in a garage the other day that had wood plank linoleum on the floor for his custom car. An epoxy coating over concrete is a nice work surface, but expensive.

A 4-mil poly sheet placed on the dirt prior to placing the re-bar and then pouring the concrete suffices to keep ground moisture from being ‘wicked’ up from the moist ground and through the concrete. Just seal the seams of the poly with an appropriate tape. A competent concrete contractor will do this automatically. I just happened to run across this ad in my “HANDYMAN” magazine last night. www.rustoleum.com EpoxyShield garage floor coating. I’m not sure if Rustoleum offers a reduced-slip system or not but I know that a couple of other manufacturers, through the ads I’ve read over the years, do offer a reduced slip or no-slip system. One gives you a couple of bags of some kind of grit that you sprinkle onto the wet epoxy sealant for traction.

I’ve lived in Buffalo, Potsdam, and Syracuse, New York, and I have to agree with profhandy. NY is nearly always humid.

Um, a wood structure properly designed and constructed would have no problem supporting your car. As a matter of fact, if you’ll look at the process of lifting multistory buildings for new foundations you’ll find the crib structures on which they’re supported are made of wooden beams. Huge, old, brick, three story schoolhouses hoisted in the air on wooden crib structures for example.

I’m guessing you’ve never been to engineering school?

Another idea is place concrete aggregate, 3/4" to 1-1/2" crushed rocks, right over the existing dirt floor. If you need to use a floor jack and/or jack stands, get a hold of some 2" X 10" hardwood boards. Rough-cuts are less expensive and work just as well as milled lumber for this purpose. “Scab” them edge to edge for wider widths using 3/4" CDX (exterior grade) plywood. Glue and screw the plywood to the 2-bys. I use 1-1/2" deck screws and Titebond II exterior grade and waterproof glue. The plywood will give you a nice flat surface to set the wheels of the jack onto or the legs of the jack stands onto and keep those items from sinking into the dirt/crushed stones. Rough-cuts (hardwood like oak) can be gotten at either the mill that you get your posts and beams from or a local sawmill or wood pallet manufacturer.

In any instance, ensure that you cover the whole surface of the scabbed-together 2-bys with plywood. Use short enough screws so as not to penetrate all the way through the 2-bys. Make the bases for the floor jack wide enough plus about 2" for the width of the jack wheels. Instead of a single base for the jack, consider making up 2 smaller pads. They’d be easier to manhandle into place, especially under a vehicle.

You would now have a non-combustible surface that also offers quick draining of rain/melted snow without needing floor drains, etc. Just please don’t drain oil, and especially anti-freeze or other automotive liquids right into the ground. This is the least expensive thing that I’ve come up with so far. You will still have to buy some concrete for the supports for the vertical posts. That’s as per the Uniform Building Code which most jurisdictions in this Country have adopted. A concrete contractor will know this. If you’re going to try to do this yourself, most public libraries have a copy or two of the applicable codes for their specific jurisdiction available. Your local Building Department most likely will let you look at their books at their office, also. You’ll need all of this information anyway to be able to secure a building permit. Good luck! (Just for the heck of it, what area of NY are you located?).

Only on the costal plain. In the central and North parts of state the weather is much nicer.

I can only assume that you’ve NEVER BEEN to upstate NY. It’s the snowiest region east of the Rockies. The three snowiest cities in the US (Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo). They get a lot of snow and a lot of rain. I suggest you visit that area before you make a statement like that. Spend a winter there and tell me how NICE it is.

But I still would like to see ANY evidence that Concrete garage floor is going to cause problem.

I have tried two additional responses but seems like CarQuestions doesn’t like me today. I’ll try a little later. It concerns things like a crushed rock floor and wood pads for placing under floor jacks/jack stands.–Later, Prof H.
OOPS! I just noticed that we have TWO pages going. (HEY! I’m French-Canadian-American. Quit picking on me!!).

The whole catch to a wood floor in an area used for vehicle storage is that the Building Codes state that under no circumstances will the floor of the structure be of anything except non-combustible materials. This includes carports and motorhome pads.

Getting back to non-combustibles, if one needs to work under a vehicle, use a method such as previously-mentioned to get the vehicle up and securely set. Slide a sheet of plywood to lay yourself on. Then do whatever work that you need to do. Since the plywood is “mobile”, it can’t be considered permanent, thus you don’t have a floor of combustible materials. Just slide the plywood out after you’re done and set it up against a wall or someplace else out of the way. To this day, I still use cardboard appliance boxes under me on my concrete floor. Helps keep the 'roids and old arthritic bones from getting chilled from laying on that cold concrete. I just pull it out and store it against a wall when not in use.
Out of the 1997 U.B.C., Section 312.5 Garage Floor Surfaces (pertaining to “private garages”): “In areas where motor vehicles are stored or operated, floor surfaces shall be of noncombustible materials or asphaltic paving materials.” Seems a little contradictory, doesn’t it? What are ‘asphaltic paving materials’ made of? That’s “blacktop”- a petroleum-based material. But that’s the code! Now you might get away with wooden planks with a noncombustible material of some kind applied to the surface, but would you really want to challenge your friendly local building officials? They might end up not being so friendly because of this kind of challenge to their intelligence and authority.

That’s why I suggest a friendly visit to your local building/zoning department ahead of time. They are a wealth of information in this area. A lot of jurisdictions don’t even require formal blueprints. You can get 17" X 22" graph paper and do your own drawings using pen and ruler. Just do it to scale and state the scale used. The B&Zs often require several “views” of the proposed structure, i.e.: floor plan from above, elevation, end view, long-wall view, etc. I have always brought my first copy into them for a preliminary review so that they can make any necessary corrections. Then they usually require 3 or 4 copies for their records. Don’t forget at least 3 copies for yourself. These can be made at most any photocopy place for a couple of bucks each. You’ll need at least 1 copy for yourself, one copy for each of your contractors, and at least one for the lending institution. So that’s one way to secure a permit. Otherwise, you just might have to get an architect to draw things up and you can bet that he/she will charge you a heck of a lot more just for copies. In the meantime, go for it!

I would also highly consider a noncombustible roof material. Metal is an excellent option but there are now a lot of cementious materials available that look just like wood shake roofs without the fire hazard. Metal is the same. They make individual shingles or stamp out sheets that simulate individual shingles. Otherwise, for economy, I’d go with a fire-rated Class A 30-year warranty “architectural” asphalt/fiberglass system. That’s another personal preference thing. Remember that there are many, many over 125-year+ old post and beam structures still being used. Barns aren’t the only structures. Some small factories, cotton or tobacco sheds, leather tanneries, etc., are all still standing and in use.

Excellent post!

I too use corrogated cardboard. It’s probably the most used material in the world for sliding under cars without undue discomfort. I like it far better than a creeper.

Interesting comment about the factories, tanneries etc. I wish I’d thought of that when commenting on the load capabilities of wood framed structures. Any idea how much a medium sized Haus milling machine weighs? We have miles of old wood framed factory buildings along the Merrimack river that all housed equipment, some weighing many tons, on upper floors.

You’d be guessing incorrectly.

I know you could build a wood floor to support a car, I also know it’s not practical and about as silly of an idea as I’ve heard. In the business I’m in, I inspect construction daily, and I know that 90% of the cheap contractors building houses these days can’t manage to build a deck right much less a wooden garage floor capable of supporting the weight of the stuff I have packed into my garage. Yes, he might only want to put his Geo Metro in there today and it’s light and it doesn’t take a lot to support a Geo Metro. Shoot, 4 men could probably tote one into a house. However, add to that Metro, a tool cabinet, lawn tractor, and 4 zillion other items that end up packing out a garage, and you have a heck of a lot of weight to be supported by a wood floor. This whole thing borders on being as intelligent as the Water for fuel discussions.

Skip

Interesting comment about the factories, tanneries etc. I wish I’d thought of that when commenting on the load capabilities of wood framed structures. Any idea how much a medium sized Haus milling machine weighs? We have miles of old wood framed factory buildings along the Merrimack river that all housed equipment, some weighing many tons, on upper floors.

In Syracuse NY the origional New Process Gear building was in Downtown Syracuse. I think it was 6 or 8 stories. About 10 years ago it was refurbished into office space. There was still old machines in there…that had to be cut up with a torch and taken out piece by piece.

I too use cardboard as a creeper. I have about 5 big pieces now sitting in my garage. When one wears out I’ll throw it out and use one of the spares. Using a creeper I have to raise the car even higher.

It’s not that you can’t build a wooden floor to hold the weight of a car, it’s that for a garage, it’s pretty ridiculous at best.

First of all, this guy is worried about the effects on a car from sitting on concrete. I’d like to hear a legitimate theory on how it is that a car is going to be damaged sitting on a concrete pad. The fact is, a car sitting on a concrete pad in a garage is not going to be harmed one iota. If it is, you need to pick another car that’s not such a wuss.

Second is the discussion of moisture problems. He says the moisture is coming from the humidity in the air. I’m sorry, I live in the Southeastern US in one of the most humid places short of a rain forest and I have never noticed any significant moisture coming from humid air and landing on an enclosed garage floor. That said, concrete will wick water up. It’s my opinion that if he has a water problem on his garage floor, it’s not caused by air but rather poor drainage on his property in which case he needs a backhoe, some gravel and drain tile not a wood floored garage to solve the problem.

Third, there is a heck of a lot of difference in how the elements will affect a wood floor 4 feet off the ground or for that matter a second story factory v’s a garage floor that is pretty much going to be sitting on the ground. If he has a ground water problem which was indicated by the problem with the wet garage floor, that ain’t gonna change because he went to a wood floor unless he fixes the drainage on the property in which case, his cement floor will then be dry and this whole discussion is pointless. A wood floor with an underlying wet condition, particularly one that’s pretty much going to be sitting on the ground like in the case of a garage is going to be a constant pain in the tail to keep repaired. The wood will rot, termites and the like will be a problem because it’s wet, dark, moist wood. In a rotten condition, the wood is not going to be able to support the necessary weight for a garage. Another thing you have to look at when you start comparing modern construction to buildings constructed 100 years ago is the vast difference in the quality of the wood used. There is no comparison in the strength and quality of wood that was available in the 1800’s v’s the junk being sold today. We make boards today out of trees they wouldn’t have cut up for firewood 100 years ago let alone derived lumber from to build a commercial building.

Lastly, the building inspector isn’t going to go for that so what’s the point?

Skip

+1 for the cardboard as a creeper! I can’t stand creepers, they are uncomfortable and I don’t own a hoist so even with the car on ramps, I don’t like having my nose touch the oil pan…

I wholeheartedly agree with you that a wood floor in a garage is not a good idea. Tha National Home Builder’s Association clearly agrees. Apparently so does the National Fire Prevention Association.

My point was to your comment about your toolbox falling through the floor. My impression from that was that load ratings were not something you were familiar with.

I agree that there are a whole lot of poor contractors out there. Many who don’t understand loading, load paths or how to create proper ones. I have an old house that’s had modifications over the years and I’m currently in the process of correcting a hokey structure in an added upstairs bedroom. The person who did the work apparently didn’t know what he was doing. Fortunately at this point everything’s done but hanging the closet doors…two original oak 1940 French doors complete with the old distorted glass. Yeah, I know, not your normal closet doors…but gorgeous!

However, add to that Metro, a tool cabinet, lawn tractor, and 4 zillion other items that end up packing out a garage, and you have a heck of a lot of weight to be supported by a wood floor. This whole thing borders on being as intelligent as the Water for fuel discussions.

Actually there are MANY wood floors in garages here in NE…The support structure and sub-floor is all wood…But on-top of the sub-floor is poured concrete. And below the garage is a cellar. Structure wise the wood had no problem holding the weight.

Skip, Stop making sense! :wink:

You hit on all the relevant points and made clear, concise arguments. Wanna bet the debate rages on?

I’m sure you watch THIS OLD HOUSE, so go there for building answers,

thanks!

you can not time a floor joist,header,king stud,jack stud,sill plate, ect ect. wrong BAT TIMEwrong BAT channel.

Concrete will pass moisture and there is a critical test that should be done before finishing basements with concrete floors where the right conditions exist. If there is high moisture in the soil for any reason, you can get it coming up through the concrete.

That’s true of older concrete floors. In new construction they usually put a plastic moisture barrier under the concrete, so ground water should not be a problem. It’s a cheap fix if you are building a new garage, not so cheap after the concrete is already poured.

It’s all relative. Down on the coastal plain (NYC) it is more humid. Of course it is even more humid where I live now. I have a little time on the costal plain, but 25 years doing more than visiting Monroe, Tompkins and Chenango counties. That includes 25 winters, springs, summers and falls. Is that long enough? In fact, despite the fact that I have lived or live in Arizona, Kentucky and Louisiana, and at both ends of PA, I visited and continue to visit there for about two weeks of the year when I am not living there. I am a booster. It is a great climate for people that like to go outside to play. The only times of the year I don’t like there are late fall after the leaves are down (gray, gray, gray) and late winter/early spring (mud and dust). I always looked forward to seeing the hillsides turning black and white in the spring (the return of the Holsteins).

If the previously-mentioned crushed rock aggregate might be a little too sharp on your body, think about using pea gravel or some other stone material that doesn’t have as many or as sharp edges.