FRAUD in the automotive industry?

I agree that easy money is a problem. Look at 2008 and all the mess that caused…

I have mentioned the experience my GF had when buying a new car. She want to the local Kia dealer and you could tell they were doing all this bait and switch stuff. She wanted a basic model without touch screens and that crap. They had two strippers on the lot with a 6 speed manual and as little automated stuff as you could hope for in a modern car. The 6 speed was a lot of fun and I thought it was a pretty solid car. “Well, for only $15 more a month you can have an infotainment system, enhanced climate control, etc.” They just wanted to keep adding on ANYTHING. “For an extra $1/month you can have heated floormats.” That is a joke but you get what I am saying. “6 months no payments”. The list just went on and on and everything was about the financing and not the out the door price of the car. This really rubbed me the wrong way.

I see this kind of thing in the electronics industry all the time. I tend to tell people to avoid the cheap no-name brands as well as the cheapest models of otherwise reputable brands because something is always missing. Being a rural area, you are somewhat limited in what you can get if you need something ASAP. If you can wait two days or so, you can get ANYTHING Amazon sells but choices for immediate needs are limited. Luckily we have a Staples in town so you aren’t stuck with Wal-Mart low end stuff.

Well, I was at a small town quite far away. I was working and realized we needed a new monitor. The only place in town was Wal-Mart so we went. They only had 3 monitors in the store. Two were no names and total crap. The most expensive one was a decent looking 24 inch HP. I have setup dozens or hundreds of the 24 inch model sold at Staples and this looked like the same monitor except it was $10 cheaper and had a different model number on the sticker. I am pretty sure that is the only difference in the monitor itself. The model sold at Staples always come with an HDMI cable and I assumed this one would as well.

Anyway, we get home and realize the monitor doesn’t have a cable so the lady has to run back out and buy one. They actually charge more for the two items separately at Wal-Mart than at Staples so this is another form of bait at switch where the cheaper price isn’t really cheaper. At least she got a decent monitor out of the deal and I guess this would be the better option if you had an extra cable around or were replacing a monitor with the same type of cable already.

One thing I see poor people do is buy something cheap as long as it looks good when it is new. Lots of times the veneer of any quality is only skin deep and they are buying cheap stuff far sooner than they should. It is still a “good deal” to them because they don’t understand this.

I was talking to the owner of a reputable used car dealer in town once while working on his stuff. He said you get pretty good people with good credit buying cars for more than $10,000. Anything less can be hit or miss. He says you get really good people and some really bad people. Then he mentioned how he sometimes has some older model beaters around tax time and such. I thought it was funny how he said he would always put the best synthetic oil money could buy in these cars because odds were the person buying a $1200 car would never change the oil again. He had a few do this and come back 3 months later when the engine died and they were all mad. He says that way the car should run at least a year before the engine fails catastrophically. I asked him “So you just put regular conventional oil in the more expensive cars because you know the owner will likely change it but put the good stuff in the cheap cars?” He was like “Yep!” You don’t save money by buying the cheap stuff or deferring maintenance.

… and then we have the dealers that seem to add a “dealer pack” of cheaply-made, poor-quality, stupid-looking aftermarket items to cars, and jack-up the price of the car by an unconscionable amount.

When I was first visiting Subaru dealers, back in '96, the first one that I walked into had an extra sticker on every car’s window listing the extra equipment that they had added. Because I don’t want any of that crap on a car, I asked the following question of the first salesman who approached me:
Is it possible to buy a car here without the “dealer pack”?

He was shocked that I knew that term, and after he regained his composure he told me that “all of our cars come with this special equipment”. Over my shoulder, as I exited, I informed him that I would not be buying anything from them.

Luckily, I was able to find another Subaru dealership–closer to home–that didn’t play those games.

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Rent to own is the most outrageous, fast growing rip off that I see and it has metastasized out to all kinds of products. Of course rent to own home purchases seems to be the beginning of the popular rip off and today it has become common in appliances, furniture and entertainment systems and even computers, and now it is a big deal in custom oversize wheels and tires. And while most people who are financially able and informed to pay no attention to rent-to-own they seem unconcerned that so many people are being ripped off by that and other schemes. And about WalMart computers, etc., years ago one of the consumer testing organizations reviewed all manner of electronic equipment and their insight into televisions was an eye opener for me. A television sold at WalMart, Sears and a commercial supplier were externally identical but the commercial supplier sold models for motels, hospitals, etc that used all the best components with no short cuts in manufacturing while the ones from Sears and similar retailers had short cuts taken and the Wal*Mart model used components that were not up to industry standards and from one unit to the next the quality of assembly was questionable. The review basically said that a used television from a motel was more reliable than a new one from the big store. Looks are deceiving.

But we really do jump to purchase appearance/price. And often most of us don’t recognize how poor our choice was. And rent-to-own cars seem to be in a legal limbo in my neighborhood. The theft deterrent/late payment systems are incorporated in some legal contract but I have never looked into the details. I have disarmed a few of them. They can be a nightmare to deal with.

I had a dealer try to sell me a $2000 wax job and a $500 engine flush once. I told them I was no way in hell going to pay that much for heavy duty wax and was about to walk out. I ended up getting that for free as it was already on the truck. As for engine flushes, I can do that myself for a lot less and only find it to be needed when you come across a REALLY neglected engine.

I guess this is the dealer package you describe. Cheap useless crap for a high price…

It usually includes a $500 wax job, plus ill-fitting wheel well moldings, and–possibly–pseudo gold-plated trim pieces. One dealer used to include fake convertible roofs–usually referred to as “pimp roofs”–in addition to the other extremely tacky aftermarket equipment.

Right after World War II, many dealers not only added any accessories they could to a car that the factory didn’t add, but also had to be paid under the table if the purchaser wanted the car. There was often a waiting period of more than a year for delivery of a new car. Also, the customer took whatever make was available.

I only set foot in a rent to own place once. I didn’t know what it was all about and decided I would never come back. The stuff is basically worn out by the time it is paid off and the process starts all over. This is a TERRIBLE deal! My brother sent me a “rent to own grillz” ad the other day. I am talking about gold front teeth as he lives in inner city Atlanta. What will they think of next? Rent to own lottery tickets?

Those cheap tacky add-ons really sell, especially to the lower end market. I have found those people care more about looks and not function. I had a customer offer to trade in his old laptop in exchange for something off the bill. I used to sell used computers but not anymore as it was a huge hassle. He gave me a choice as he wanted to keep one. One was an el cheapo from Wal-Mart that was in great cosmetic shape and looked nice. The other was a used commercial grade and you could tell it had been used. There were scuffs and other minor wear and tear but it was a much better unit. I was like “I would take the more used one if I was using it but since I am going to be selling it, I want the one that looks better.” That is always how it goes in that $300 and less market.

Yes, lots of things from Wal-Mart are lower grades. That goes for computers, TVs, mowers, etc. It also goes for TIRES and BATTERIES. I have never thought the Everstart batteries were all that hot but at least you can get one with a good warranty as you will need it. I won’t even go near the tires. I got a set on a used car and they nearly killed me. I pulled into the next gas station on a spare and checked the pressure. Some guy was wondering what happened so I showed him the destroyed tire. He was like “That is a Douglas from Wal-Mart. They all do that!” I was unaware they were Wal-Mart tires but another started to come apart on me a few weeks later but I was watching them and caught it very early on. I replaced them all at that point in time.

It is one thing if they sell a cheap computer which gives the poor person who bought the thing a bad experience. It is another thing if they sell crap tires that put the person who bought them as well as others on the road in danger. That is not OK. Neither are the cheap electronics because they cost the user more in the long run and most get trashed so it is an environmental issue. I try to recycle all of the ones I come across.

You can get regular products at Wal-Mart but you always want to check the actual model number and make sure it isn’t a watered down version (Goodyear Viva, etc.) Most products sold there such as electronics, mowers, etc. are special models made just for Wal-Mart. Apple is like the only company that I know of that doesn’t prostitute itself out this way. Snapper tried but obviously failed. https://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart Some of the Wal-Mart only products are not bad but you have to do your research to avoid getting burned.

That principle–essentially one of supply vs demand–is also applied in the real estate business.
When apartments are in short supply, building superintendents typically demand “key money”, which is an under-the-table bribe. I can recall that apartments were still in very short supply in the mid-50s, and in order to get the apartment that we wanted, my parents had to buy the dining room set of the owner, who was moving to one of his other properties. My mother detested the style of that furniture, but buying it was the only way to get that nice apartment.

Rent to own is now available at almost every retailer. There’s a company in Manchester NH that actually does this for the big retailers. It’s an extremely fast growing market.

Some people NEED a new appliance NOW…and the cheapest month to month option is rent to own.

Other people want a BETTER unit then they can afford so they rent to own. Those are the real idiots.

Then there’s just the Rent-A-Center…Rent with no interest in buying. College students are their target audience. And it’s a huge business.

The auto industry pretty much invented planned obsolescence. How can we make people want to buy this model year car when they already own last model year’s car? Let’s stick some bigger fins on it and call it new for '59!

Planned obsolescence doesn’t really mean “it will eventually break and be hard/expensive to fix.” It mainly means “it will make people want to switch to the newer model just so they can say they have the newer model.”

As to your version of planned obsolescence, it would be pretty silly for a company to keep cranking out obsolete parts for decades just because someone somewhere might not want to throw their old busted junk out. With computers specifically, it’s really silly to repair a 10 year old computer, because its performance is well below par in today’s environment. You can replace a computer’s guts for $500 and have a modern system. $800-$1000 if you plan to play hardware-hungry games on it. Why would I want someone still making 486 chips and stockpiling them in warehouses somewhere?

Regarding cars, parts availability on popular models isn’t a problem. I can still get just about any part I need for my old '88 Mitsubishi pickup from Rock Auto. The problem is that at some point something breaks that would cost more to fix than it would cost me to just get a newer truck, and it’s at that point that the truck will be retired. That’s just rational decisionmaking, and isn’t Mitsubishi’s fault.

The fashion industry had this hundreds of years ago, if that’s what you mean by planned obsolescence.

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My complaint with automobile technology is the incorporation of interdependence of systems in the management. Incorporating alternator output control in the ECU seems like a grand way to sell more ECUs. And for the most part ECU control of automatic transmissions has greatly increased the complexity and cost of the transmission without a worthwhile improvement in performance for the average motorist while producing whip lash at the counter when paying for repairs.

The value of old domestic trucks has remained strong due to the relative simplicity of diagnosing and cost of repairing common problems. And so many of the most troubling and costly problems of late model vehicles isn’t on the older models. Like the Boeing 737 automobile manufacturers have overshot the mark with regard to technology. I DON’T NEED NO AIR BAGS… I DON’T NEED NO TPSD…

I see a different trend away from conspicuous consumption in the younger generations. Our son, who is in his mid forties, sold his three bedroom house four years ago. Hr had a 35 minute drive to his job at a university where he had a job and was also working on his doctorate. He, his wife and daughter moved into a two bedroom apartment in a big apartment complex that was only five minutes from campus.
This spring, he completed his PhD. At the same time, the apartment owners decided to raise the rent $100 a month. A year ago, the owners decided to refurbish his apartment and they had to move to a newly renovated apartment across the hall. Of course, the rent went up then. He is now in the process of moving into a condo that they bought. I thought he might want to again buy a house. He didn’t like the idea. The closest house would mean a 15 minute drive. The condo is a five minute walk to his office.
When he moved into his house back in ,2005, they bought an expensive refrigerator with the through the door ice dispenser. The compressor gave out just after the warranty expired which resulted in a $500 repair. The icemaker never did work right. They had to buy a refrigerator for the new condo. They bought just a simple refrigerator with no ice maker.
He still drives the 2011 Toyota Sienna he bought from us. I think part of the reason for a simpler life style is the demands made on new faculty. I attended his graduation on Friday and the following Monday evening he was back in his office completing an article he is submitting for publication.
I have seen the same trend toward a simplified life style in the young faculty from the university where I retired from eight years ago.

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It’s NOT planned obsolescence. It’s just the nature of the technology. the technology is changing/improving much faster then any other industry. A computer you buy today will be cheaper and faster with more memory in a year from now. Failure rate of a home computer that’s not abused is several magnitudes lower then the BEST auto. In the auto industry they’ve made systems to fail after a certain time period.

Your home computer isn’t failing - it’s just not as fast/good and as cheap as the latest ones. Auto prices go up…Computer prices go down.

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Yeah, my gripe is more with the software aspect. Latest and greatest OS update, now my software apps don’t work anymore or incorporate features my older system doesn’t support. It’s often cheaper and less hassle to simply buy a new system already loaded with the “compatible” core applications. Two birds with one stone…

Except, you know, the whole thing about being able to go 200,000 miles without a tranny rebuild/replace. My daily driver has 140,000 miles on it now and still drives like new. I remember when 100,000 miles meant constant problems and if you could afford it, you replaced the car before then. Now they’re maybe reaching middle-age at that mileage.

Again that’s not planned obsolescence. Software updates occur several magnitudes faster then hardware changes. It’s the nature of the beast. Most of these upgrades are bug and security fixes. The rest are upgrades and enhancements. Software is evolving constantly. If it doesn’t it dies.

I can only imagine the issues caused by the remote disablers/trackers in rent to own autos. With modern tech and computers in cars, any little thing being off can cause problems. I can see the vehicle’s own anti-theft system not playing nice with some third party system that rent to own auto places might use. That being said, we had a few of them around for a while and they either went out of business or don’t make their scheme so apparent.

A buddy of mine had an issue with a newer car’s wiring harness. It was like being a brain surgeon to repair it so he ended up trading the car in rather than deal with it. It was way more than a cut and splice. The wire had to be exactly the resistance specified and shortening or lengthening it by any little bit could have made the situation worse. The dealer wanted a fortune to replace the wiring harness. The price wasn’t more than the car but it definitely made the upgrade to a newer and better model worth it for him.

Rent to own anything is for people with poor credit if you ask me. I can’t tell you how many places want you to use their 0 percent for 12 months financing options when buying. If you have decent credit you basically get free credit on stuff like furniture and electronics. They could on you missing one payment and then they charge you for the full amount of interest. They also charge you for the full amount of interest if you go beyond the 12 month period by only making the minimum payment so you have to watch this. Read the terms and pay off early is how you do it.

As for planned obsolescence, I have heard the fashion industry is by far the worst and generates the most trash of basically any consumer product. I was shocked as I figured electronics were the worst because I see them dumped all the time. I have like 4x perfectly good TVs sitting in reserve. People either dumped them because they wanted a newer model or they had a very minor problem that I was able to repair. These are flat panel 1080P LED models and such. As for clothing, they do this thing called “fast fashion”. Basically they crank out whatever new trend and make it very cheap and thin because most people won’t wear it more than a few times. So it falls apart and can’t even be donated. I think this is stupid. Then there are the different grades of clothing just like computers. Levis or Wrangler from Wal-Mart is not the real deal. It is paper thin and rips easily. So it may be a name brand but not the same quality just like tires, computers, TVs, etc. Outlet stores are terrible about this. It may be a good name but they sell a different cheap line at the outlet stores.

Computers and such seem to have a decent life of 3-5 years and only really get a good run of 10 years or so if you are lucky or know how to keep them going yourself. I do lots of businesses. Some want to keep the old stuff going as long as they can which ends up usually being false economy. It is slower, less reliable, and not as secure. One computer going down for a few hours at a business can easily cost them more money than a new computer. I try to get people to replace with computers equipped with solid state drives. This is the best thing to hit computers in years and only costs a slight premium these days. They are very hard to wear and and will actually last the life of the computer unlike many hard drives. They are not mechanical and have no moving parts. The are WAY faster, use less energy, generate less heat, and just last longer in general. There are exceptions for write intensive situations.

Running a computer beyond 10 years risks losing operating system support and this leaves more vulnerabilities open. Here is a perfect example. Is it worth the risk of keeping something old around? Nothing bad has happened yet but I have no doubt that it will and soon.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2019/06/01/microsoft-begs-windows-users-to-update-now-citing-wannacry-2-security-threat/#66881d360caa

Certain things are just not made to be repaired since they are so cheap and this makes sense with cheap scanners and printers. You just buy a new one if any little thing goes wrong.

As for computers in cars, I can see why we have them for the TCU, ECU, etc. Every little bit of extra economy helps automakers meet stricter CAFE standards and allows the engine to get just exactly the amount of fuel needed, providing for cleaner emissions and longer emissions systems life. The infotainment systems with complex touch screens get me. Why does the entire dash need to come out to change the radio? Why can’t radios be like the old style where you could put any aftermarket system in?

High costs to repair cars can make them a throwaway when the same issue in an older model would have been something a shade tree mechanic could have fixed. I don’t see why certain things can’t be made easier to service, even with more complex computer technology under the hood.

I think about how automobiles have changed since my first car–a 1947 Pontiac and how much computers have changed since ENIAC–the computer that began operating at the University of Pennsylvania around 1947. I could still make it today across the U.S. in a 1947 Pontiac that is in reasonably good condition. However, I couldn’t begin to do the statistical analyses or the research I did with back propagation neural networks that I was doing 30 years ago on ENIAC. I had a computer with an Intel 286 chip in my office. The neural network software ran continuously for almost four days before the process converged to a solution. A couple of years later, I bought s computer with an Intel 486 chip. I put the same software on my computer and fed in the same data. I then went to the kitchen and made myself a cup of coffee. Forty minutes later I went back to my den and the network had converged to the solution. I have been running an eight year old laptop. A year ago, Mrs. Triedaq surprised me with a Surface tablet. I was a panelist this past April to evaluate arts grant proposals. All the grants were submitted by special software. The proposals were scored using the software. I used the Surface tablet for this work. It was much easier to take to the panel review session than my laptop.
I also just completed writing a grant proposal for a chamber orchestra. I submitted the proposal electronically. In earlier days, I had to prepare 20 copies and either mail them or drive 20 miles each way to the arts center.
As I stated before, I would rather give up my modern car and go back to the 1947 Pontiac than give up my computers and go back to the early days of computing. (Are any of you old enough to have punched cards to feed into the computer or prepared paper tapes?)

Well, believe it if you will. I’ve worked at places that sold software upgrades for their equipment. And there were most certainly discussions regarding how to package upgrades to maximize revenue. Part of those discussions involved feasibility and cost of backwards compatibility and opportunity cost of doing so- i.e. lost revenue from upgrades, potentially alienating customer base etc. If you think those kind of discussions are not happening at the major software companies…